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Topic: Orange Drop Caps |
Scott Rogers
From:
Andalusia, AL
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Posted 20 Nov 2007 5:42 am |
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Folks..just doing a quick search on the net verifies that a lot of people seek the Sprague Orange Drop Capacitors for tone mods in amplifier, guitars, etc. Curious, what makes these caps SO much better than any other type? I've just cracked open and old Silvertone (sears) amplifier, and its qot quite a few. If its worth doing, I thought about replacing the caps in my guitars. Thanks!
Scott |
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Brad Sarno
From:
St. Louis, MO USA
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Posted 20 Nov 2007 5:58 am
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Scott.
The orange drops that people really like are the 716p series. That is the premium orange drop. There are many ways to make a cap and they all sound different. For tube amps, many people like film/foil caps. The 716p series are polypropylene film and foil. Both of those factors make it a very premium quality cap. The orange drops have a bright, clear, and up-front sound. That seems to work really well in a guitar amp. There are other great film and foil cap's too. Some people like the snappy sound of mylar capacitors in a Marshall amp. Some like the vintage, mellow sounding film and foil cap's that were stock in an older Fender. The 716p series orange drops have proven to be very popular with boutique amp builders and with people re-capping their old Fenders.
You'll probably want to avoid the 715 series of Orange Drops. They're ok, but they're not a foil cap and are not as lush and velvety as the 716p series. Also the Orange Drops are very affordable compared to many of the newer exotic capacitors.
Brad |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 20 Nov 2007 6:38 am
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Orange drops became the cap of choice through word of mouth 15+ years ago when the vintage amp/amp mod craze really started moving. Sprague was a known name, they were easily available, and "name" techs started using them. Pretty soon they became "better sounding" psychologically. As Brad said, you have to get the right type - but many, many amateur techs have used 715's and don't even know there's another type.
I can't tell you how many times I did cap jobs for guys who wondered why I left the blue tubular caps in Fenders - "hey, why weren't tose replaced?"...when a "cap job" concerns the filter and bias cap. Bypass caps are replaced when bad, which is almost never. The tonal effect is subtle, but especially in old Fenders the original low-voltage caps (IMO) should be left in place unless they develop problems.
Personally, I find even 716's slightly brittle sounding, and I use blue polypropylene caps instead, which seem to have a tad more warmth (I honestly can't remember the brand right now since I replace them so seldom).
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Scott Rogers
From:
Andalusia, AL
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Posted 20 Nov 2007 6:46 am
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| Thanks for the feedback guys....I know these are usually associated with amp mods.. but are they worth doing in say, a strat,, tele, or humbucker type guitars? |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 22 Nov 2007 8:41 pm
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No. Those caps don't add tone of any kind - they simply work in a subtractive manner, and adjust the taper of the pot and the amount of highs rolled off. "tone control" is a misnomer - it's a "treble reduction control".
In Teles I like the chocolate drop caps most people hate in amps - they seem to be very linear when used in a guitar tone circuit. But that's ALL they do - the y are not in the signal path, they shunt highs to ground.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
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Posted 23 Nov 2007 5:15 am
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I respectfully agree somewhat and disagree a bit as well, Jim. The caps in a passive tone circuit typically roll off as you say. However the frequency response of the caps dictates what will and can be rolled off. Still in a guitar circuit it would be a very subtle difference and most folks could not detect it.
In the case of the Fender tone stack, they are in fact in the signal path. They are acting as filters for the treble, mid and bass frequencies. |
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Mark Durante
From:
St. Pete Beach FL
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Posted 23 Nov 2007 8:04 am
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| I agree with Jim on this one, of course the composition and quality of caps have great importance in active amp circuits but passive guitar controls are quite different. As Jim points out, passive guitar "tone" controls aren't really tone controls at all. Some claim they can hear the difference between the sound of different brands of caps,(with same values),used in guitars but I would love to see these people in a blindfold test. I'd be very surprised to find anyone could tell the difference in the "tone". |
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ajm
From:
Los Angeles
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Posted 23 Nov 2007 10:41 am
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Any opinions on the yellow "mustard" caps like the tubular Mallory's or Sozo's (particularly when used in amps)?
_________________
Artie McEwan |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 23 Nov 2007 10:46 am
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Just to clarify after Ken's comments:
I didn't say bypass caps aren't part of the signal path; they are. What I DID say is they rarely fail and are often replaced uncessarily.
As far as use in guitar "tone" control circuits, though, they are not in the signal path - and the type of the cap, as stated, controls the speed or smoothness of how the treble is removed, and the value of the cap controls how much. a .1uf will roll off more treble than a .047 (which used to be the standard). Since most 6-string players don't touch their tone controls (I use mine constantly) .022uf caps have become more popular as there's lss treble rolloff.
That's what a standard guitar "tone" control is - a treble remover. It can't "add" bass, treble, or anything else. Active (powered) tone circuits are a different story; and there are non-powered "tone" controls advertised as "midrange boost" units - that don't "boost" anything, they simply cut BOTH treble and bass with passive filters.
But no matter which value you use in a stock guitar circuit, when "dimed" there is no audible difference. You can see a slight difference on a scope in some cases, but there's nothing audible, no matter what some players claim - that debate was dubunked in the 6-string world years ago but still shows up now and then.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Ken Fox
From:
Nashville GA USA
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Posted 23 Nov 2007 12:20 pm
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Jim, like you I keep my treble control wide open! I also installed a push-pull pot to bypass the tone and volume controls on my guitar, as I use a volume pedal.
I just replaced all the tone coupling caps in an old tube amp here. They were the old oil filled and every one was leaking DC.
I hardly ever see a bad coupling cap in an old Fender amp. One exception was the cleanest Super Reverb from the seventies I had ever touched. Had more noise and strange things than any Fender I ever saw. Almost ever cap was leaking DC voltage. A new set of coupling caps fixed it right up.
When I work on tube amps I always check the coupling caps for DC leakage. As low as 0.5 volts leakage can cause a lot problems. Leaky tone caps show up as very scratchy pots that cannot be cleaned!
I had a bad run of silver mica caps from Mojotone recently leaking DC. They make the treble pots very scratchy. I had to toss all of them. Mojotone was not the least bit interested in hearing about it or doing anything about it!!! |
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Jim Sliff
From:
Lawndale California, USA
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Posted 24 Nov 2007 8:54 am
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| Quote: |
| Jim, like you I keep my treble control wide open! |
Errr - actually, I said OTHERS do that...mine's almost never wide open, and I tweak it all the time for subtle changes that probably only I can hear (grin)!
I've always noticed a very subtle difference between guitar-installed volume/tone circuits and outboard ones, like volume pedals. It's not something noticed in a band context, but I can hear it alone - moving a guitar volume control has a tonal affect that a volume pedal does not - a slight loss of highs. In fact, caps are often installed to compensate...but I like the effect of the control and don't use the cap. This is one reason I just do not understand the lack of volume and especially tone controls on pedal steels. Even if I didn't need impedance matching I'd use my Steeldriver II just for the tone control. When I play my Fenders I ride the controls constantly, just like on a 6-string...with my GFI Ultra, I have to ride them on the Steeldriver, and there's a difference to the sound/effect (plus it's far less conveniently positioned).
I remember my MSA Classic had controls - I wonder why they essentially disappeared from pedal steel? To me, it cripples the instrument.
That Super with the leaking caps is a strange case. It must have been damaged somehow - I've never seen that before either. With old amps, like you mention, the oil-filled ones are almost always toast.
The "scratchy pot" point is a really good one for players to be aware of - guys have replaced pots only to find they have another bad one...and another...when it's a cap all along.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional |
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Bill Creller
From:
Saginaw, Michigan, USA (deceased)
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Posted 24 Nov 2007 5:15 pm
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| I seldom use the orange drops anymore. I use mostly the Mallory 150s, and some of the xicon types for coupling caps. I build stuff with turret boards, and the orange drops are massive compared to the 150s. Most people I talk to cannot hear any difference, but that's subjective I think. |
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