| Author |
Topic: why not D9th or C9th |
Joseph Barcus
From:
Volga West Virginia
|
Posted 14 Oct 2007 4:34 am |
|
| I know it sounds like I may have too much time on my hands I was wondering why or how the pedal steel became E9th if one had a back neck to C6th would it not be somewhat better if the top neck was C9th the chords would be in the same place E at the fourth fred and so on. or is there a sound clash in the C9th tuning that would make the music not right??? well anyways share your thoughts if you dont mind please. |
|
|
 |
Colin Mclean
From:
Rancho Santa Margarita, CA
|
Posted 14 Oct 2007 8:35 am
|
|
| Quote: |
| is there a sound clash in the C9th tuning that would make the music not right??? |
I'm not a steel expert but what I know about music tells me that the chords would always work the same, no matter what key the tuning is in.
I've often wondered that about regular guitar, too, and came to the conclusion that it just must have sounded right and been easy to use, so it stuck. |
|
|
|
Gary Shepherd
From:
Fox, Oklahoma, USA
|
Posted 14 Oct 2007 11:45 am
|
|
I've considered tuning my guitar to D#9 to get E at the first fret rather than open strings. I think there would be less string-breaking too.
_________________
Gary Shepherd
Carter D-10 & Peavey Nashville 1000
www.16tracks.com |
|
|
|
Tom Gorr
From:
Three Hills, Alberta
|
Posted 14 Oct 2007 1:19 pm
|
|
| Gary Shepherd wrote: |
| I've considered tuning my guitar to D#9 to get E at the first fret rather than open strings. I think there would be less string-breaking too. |
That's a good reason as any. However, there's some players that like to do the open strings+bar hammer/tap routine which would put the idea offside for them. |
|
|
|
Bill Ford
From:
Graniteville SC Aiken
|
Posted 14 Oct 2007 1:25 pm
|
|
I seem to remember reading that Jimmy Day tuned to D9. Maybe that was part of his sound..The biggest part was the fact that the thumb and two fingers of his right hand were connected directly to his heart.( read that somewhere too )
_________________
Bill Ford S12 CLR, S12 Lamar keyless, Misc amps&toys Sharp Covers
Steeling for Jesus now!!! |
|
|
|
Andy Greatrix
From:
Edmonton Alberta
|
Posted 14 Oct 2007 2:07 pm
|
|
Tuning to E9th is the highest key you can go to with a third on your third string(g#). That enables John Hughey to play up in "hugheyland".
Having said that, D6th or E6th would be interesting instead of C6th, but your low notes wouldn't have the same texture.
(thiner strings) |
|
|
|
Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
|
Posted 14 Oct 2007 6:28 pm
|
|
Andy has the right idea. If you want easy, tune the bottom neck to E6 so your keys and chords will be the same as E9.In fact 7 or 8 Strings on the E6 are exactly the same strings as on E9. I just posted a lot of info on C6 to E6 and how it relates to E9. That is the way I do it and several other players that I know have changed to E6 instead of C6.It is real easy to do, you just change the strings, use a E9 set, mostly and all the pedals will work just the same underneath...al.
_________________
Michigan (MSGC)Christmas Dinner and Jam on my 80th Birthday.
My Email.. almarcus@cmedic.net
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus |
|
|
|
Colin Mclean
From:
Rancho Santa Margarita, CA
|
Posted 14 Oct 2007 6:38 pm
|
|
Maurice Anderson writes in his article "Pedal Steel Guitar: Back and to the Future!",
| Quote: |
| I have never found information which would directly point to the reason as to why the "E" and "C" pitched tunings were ultimately decided upon. I do however believe it to be highly probable the "E" pitch was decided upon because it is the pitch of the first string on a regular guitar, which some may consider to be the grandfather of the steel guitar. I further believe it to be probable, the "C" pitch was decided upon because middle "C" on a piano is the most widely known musical point of reference. |
Found that on b0b dot com. |
|
|
|
Andy Greatrix
From:
Edmonton Alberta
|
Posted 14 Oct 2007 7:17 pm
|
|
| Also, When playing C6th, you have to be careful that your low notes don't clash with the bass player, and hopefully you are playing with a bass player who is paying attention. |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 14 Oct 2007 8:02 pm
|
|
I have played both D9th and D6th. Using D9th instead of E9th gives you a fuller, darker tone. If you have a guitar that breaks strings on E9th, switching to D9th will help. Also, if you lower the 10th string to G and the 9th to B you can get open position Dobro licks - pretty handy with the right electronics.
The downside is that D9th doesn't stand out as well tonally in a guitar-oriented band. You can get some country D9th licks on a standard C6th neck, using P4 like the A pedal and P5 like a B pedal in reverse. It's a lot of ankle movement, but it's possible. Billy Phelps has this technique down cold.
I used to play D6th in a large western band. I felt that it cut through the mix better than C6th, and I didn't have to worry about stepping on the bass player's toes quite so much on the low strings.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
|
Posted 14 Oct 2007 8:12 pm
|
|
I remember a very fine steel player, playing a ZB, in the house band at Mr.Luckey's in Phoenix. AZ about 1972. He got a nice mellow tone and had his both necks tuned to D. D6 on the bottom and D9 on the top. You are right on there b0b, with the highest note F# instead of G#, hardly no broken 3rd strings anymore....al.
_________________
Michigan (MSGC)Christmas Dinner and Jam on my 80th Birthday.
My Email.. almarcus@cmedic.net
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus |
|
|
|
John McClung
From:
Olympia WA, USA
|
Posted 16 Oct 2007 10:50 pm
|
|
A friend of mine has E9 on top, B6 on the bottom, for this reason: when you lower E's on the E9, you're in B6. So now both necks are more aligned, and theoretically easier to play. Anyone else try that?
A lot of vintage players tuned to D9 to minimize string breakage. Bobby Boyd here in L.A., for one, he sure was a smooth player.
_________________
E9 INSTRUCTION
▪️ If you want to have an ongoing discussion, please email me, don't use the Forum messaging which I detest! steelguitarlessons@earthlink.net |
|
|
|
Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
|
Posted 17 Oct 2007 6:14 am
|
|
John-That is not a bad idea at all. B6 on the bottom neck makes more sense than C6.
A6 on the bottom neck would make a lot of sense too as it is the same as pedals down on E9. Everyone knows how to play A6 on the E9th tuning..al.
_________________
Michigan (MSGC)Christmas Dinner and Jam on my 80th Birthday.
My Email.. almarcus@cmedic.net
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus |
|
|
|
Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
|
Posted 17 Oct 2007 6:55 am
|
|
It maybe doesn't make much difference these days what with steelers starting right out on the pedal steel. However, in the early days, most of use steelers who are rather long in the tooth went from non-pedal to pedals in our playing progression.
I cut my teeth on the old Hawaiian A tuning, then to an E tuning and then, finally to C6th.
On the E9th neck, you basically have the A & E tuning and then to complete the package, you put C6th on the other neck.
It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks!  |
|
|
|
Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
|
Posted 17 Oct 2007 8:29 am
|
|
Erv-That's is sure about it.
But any 6th will do, as the intervals are all the same, A6-C6-D6-Bb6-B6-E6. Only the fret Bar postions change.
I can take a guess how C6 came about , as I was there in those days. A6 was the pretty much the Pre-Dominant tuning in the 30's. High bass or Low bass. But I preferred A6 in the ealy days.We only had 6 strings at first.Top down, E was the first string like a guitar.
E-C#-A-F#-E-C#....A6
E-C#-G#...........C#minor
E-B-G#...........E7
Now if you changed on A6 the 2nd string C# to C the 4th string F# to G the 6th string C# to C, you have C6 with the root on the bottom, somebody , probably Jerry Byrd, saw how easy it was to change right in between songs on the job.
E-C-A-G-E-C-......C6
In Hawaiian music I changed tunings quite a bit on the job. Say A6 I would change the 3rd string A to G# a half tone drop to get a nice C# minor on the top 3 strings. then if I dropped the 2nd string C# a whole tone to B with it, I had a nice E7., using slants and the A6 as basic tuning gave a lot of versatility to my playing.
Well, it is a long story and I better quit now...al.
_________________
Michigan (MSGC)Christmas Dinner and Jam on my 80th Birthday.
My Email.. almarcus@cmedic.net
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus |
|
|
|
David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
|
Posted 17 Oct 2007 11:05 am Re: why not D9th or C9th
|
|
| Joseph Barcus wrote: |
| ...I was wondering why or how the pedal steel became E9th. |
I think Maurice, Erv and Al have touched on the history. This all goes back to six string Hawaiian tunings, which were derived from guitar and so were variations of E or A. The Delta blues slide players also used those keys, for the same reasons. Jerry Byrd introduced C6, and I don't know if he ever explained why he chose that key. C is a natural key for keyboards (all white notes) and is the simplest key from the standpoint of theory and written music. But Jerry played country and Hawaiian by ear with guitar bands, so his reasons for choosing C are unclear. So before country pedal steel came along, non-pedal steelers might have A, E and C necks on their multineck instruments. And if they played a single neck, it would likely be one of those keys.
For whatever reasons, Bud Isaac chose to have Bigsby put pedals on his E7 neck, and he had the first big hits of country style pedal steel with Web Pierce. An E neck is always a favorite, because most steelers come from a guitar background. The pedals also gave the familiar A6 tuning on the same neck. So this was just a natural for many nonpedal players moving to the new country pedal steel style Bud introduced in the '50s. That quickly evolved into the 8-string E9 neck. And since there were only 8 strings, with no G# on top, there were no string breakage problems.
C6 was so firmly established in Western Swing that many people wanted that as a second neck on their D8 pedal steel. So this pretty much established E9 and C6 as the most popular tunings for D8. Then in the '60s most pedal steelers moved to the new D10s with the same tunings. When Ralph Mooney put the G# on top (originally on an 8-string?), string breakage problems were introduced. Some players dropped E9 down to D9 to deal with that.
Later Maurice and Jeff Newman developed the 12-string universal by combining both tunings. For some players that resolved the whole multiple necks issue. In that tuning the B6 mode is related as the 5th of E9 mode (And E9 is the fourth of the B6 mode). And you have both the high pitched sound of E9 and the lower sound of B6. A universal can be used all as one big tuning, or a center cluster of levers can be used to duplicate the standard C6 setup so the guitar is played either as E9 or B6, just as on a double neck.
Well, that's the history as I understand it, mostly from what I have read here on the Forum. People who actually lived through it all might have more details.
Obviously many players still prefer two completely independent necks. On a double neck there is no reason for the keys to be related, but it could add convenience in learning the frets if they are related. Tuning C6 down to B6 relates the keys, but you loose the open strings for songs traditionally done in C. Tuning both necks to the same key is another way to relate the necks. But you loose the contrasting pitch ranges of traditional E9 and C6. And to someone who plays a uni, it seems like some kind of misguided overkill to have two necks tuned to the same key. |
|
|
|
Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
|
Posted 17 Oct 2007 2:56 pm
|
|
David-I read all you posts and like what you say. Your post is pretty much about the way it all unfolded back through the years.
But I don't personally think is is detrimental to have E tuning on both necks, however It would work just as well if A6 was on the bottom neck to go with E9 on the top neck.
But I , personally , like E9 and E6 as when I want G it is the 3rd fret on either neck, or C is on the 8th fret of either neck. I think that would help a newbie a lot in learning the 6th neck, It would also help if charts had to be read at a later date, no need to transpose..My 2 cents worth and worth about 2 cents.....al.
_________________
Michigan (MSGC)Christmas Dinner and Jam on my 80th Birthday.
My Email.. almarcus@cmedic.net
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus |
|
|
|
Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
|
Posted 17 Oct 2007 5:02 pm Perference
|
|
| This is really for those who cna play both necks and players like Al. What do you prefer, using any of the keys spoken about. I suspect, that e9 evolved because some one founfd it easier to play the music they played, something about desperation being the mother of invention. I like the comment " the thumb and first two fingers are closer to my heart" probably a lot of truth here. I have read on the forum about the usefulness of the 2nd and 7th string, but on most song in muy limited experience, very limited, I don't see a lot of use.I stll havent heard read a good explanation od how the root noet at the seventh string which I believe is an octave away from the second string is voiced with inverted root. The problem to me isn't music theory, it just seems to me it is a conflict of voice, if you will. I guess I am not explaining my issue very well, just showing my confusion. Please someone explain the conflict of the lower string with a bass player. Erv, since you are multi-neckeul, which do you prefer |
|
|
|
Erv Niehaus
From:
Litchfield, MN, USA
|
Posted 18 Oct 2007 6:21 am
|
|
I guess that I played my T-8 Stringmaster more than any other instrument. I played it with several different groups and also had a few radio programs. This was back in the days that local radio stations had a "house band" and we would play live.
I had my T-8 tuned to various versions of A, E and C tunings. Certain songs just work out better in certain tunings. Also, it allowed one to play in different keys more adventagiously. For instance, on the A neck, C was on the 3rd fret. On the E neck, C was on the 8th fret and on the C neck, C was open or the 12th fret. It just allowed for more variety.
My high string was E on all the necks.
BTW: On my A neck, I put bass strings on the bottom 4 strings. |
|
|
|
b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
|
Posted 18 Oct 2007 7:48 am
|
|
I really like the fact that the two necks are in unrelated keys. The flat keys are at the sweeter sounding frets on the back neck, and the sharp keys sound sweeter on the front.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
|
|
|
David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
|
Posted 18 Oct 2007 8:34 am
|
|
Al, your 2 cents makes mine worth about 0.0002 cents. So I ain't gonna argue anything with you. I agree with you that having two necks in the same key is not detrimental, and certainly that would be convenient for learning the frets, and the functions of the strings for different roots and inversions. My personal problem would be having the extra cost, weight, string changes, etc. for a double neck versus a single-neck uni.
I can understand b0b and Erv's rationales for two necks in different keys. I also understand the rationale of somebody like Paul Franklin, who says he wants to be able to experiment with changes on one neck without affecting the other neck.
But I once got a D12 for the purpose of putting an E9/B6 uni tuning on one neck, and trying a 12-string E7 sacred steel tuning on the other. But when I saw how big and heavy the thing was, and how much trouble it would be to convert those two 12-string necks, I said to heck with it. Having two big necks tuned in the same key with minor string order and pedal and lever differences was too crazy even for me. I decided I needed to learn to do whatever I wanted to do on one neck - my limitations are in my skill, not the size and complexity of the instrument. I also dabble with keyboard, sax, guitar, Dobro, and harmonica. You got to draw the line somewhere, and for me personally that is currently with an S12 uni for pedal steel. Maybe in my next life I'll get a T12: E9, E6, and sacred steel E7.  |
|
|
|
Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
|
Posted 18 Oct 2007 8:57 am Scared Steel
|
|
| Why E7 for the sacred steel? |
|
|
|
Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
|
Posted 18 Oct 2007 9:38 am
|
|
David- I agree wholeheartedly with your last post. I was theroizing about D10's. My first Double neck Pedal guitars, were MSA D12's and I played mostly on the bottom neck. I had Reece's Bb6-Maj7. But I had the E9 on the top neck to try and sound country enough if I had to, when I played a country job. I played all the Western Swing on the 6th neck, but it could be played just as well on the E9th neck..
I have had a lot of S12 uni's, MSA, Carter, Mullen, GFI, Williams, Excel and like the idea of the weight and doing it all on one tuning.I think that will be the future of the Steel Guitar.Thanks for you fine comments..al.
_________________
Michigan (MSGC)Christmas Dinner and Jam on my 80th Birthday.
My Email.. almarcus@cmedic.net
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus |
|
|
|
Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
|
Posted 19 Oct 2007 11:39 am
|
|
I've always tuned to Eb9, and I've never broken a string.
You should also bear in mind that when you play on a keyboard, using all the black keys gives you the blues scale in Eb. So, if you're playing with a keyboard player, and you happen to be playing the blues, you're giving him an easy set-up. He'll love you for it ! |
|
|
|
