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Topic: Planned obsolescence? |
Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 11 Oct 2007 4:14 pm |
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I have and use two aging guitar amplifiers, (one about 25 years old & the other 39 years) and have had in the last year a few minor problems with both of them, filter caps in the older one, broken nylon shafts on a couple pots on the other one. Nothing major, but maintaining the amps has started me thinking about buying a newer one, and that's brought some questions to mind.
The amp from the late '70's/early 80's is all solid-state and printed circuit board, the 39-year-old amp is all tube and old-fashioned point-to-point hand-wired.
The band I'm currently playing with is very rough on equipment and I made the mistake of leaving my solid-state amp with them to transport to the gigs in their truck and was rewarded with 3 broken shafts on some control pots, as they used nylon shafts on this model.
All the pots are mounted on the long strip preamp PC board running across the face of the amp. The pressure on the knobs broke some of the solder joints of the pots to the pc board and loosened one of the traces.
Naturally it's impossible to find pots that fit exactly into this PC board, so I cobbled a typical pot in place and it works OK so far but I'm wondering how long before the PC board just disintegrates and I can't keep it together.
The older amp with point-to-point wiring, as with all such construction is built like a tank, and changing a part is just changing a part, no worry about the chassis falling apart.
I was thinking about buying a new amp, and Fender's lightweight amp was looking attractive, until I began thinking about my old solid-state amp, and wondering how long will any of these new amps last?
Not just the PC board... my old solid-state amp has many small ICs too and I'd bet the new amps with their built-in effects, modelling etc. are full of them, and even the solid-state amps without effects most likely have some IC's. What happens when one of these goes bad? Does that mean you must send it back to the factory? If you can take it to a local service shop, what about in 10 or 15 years? Will anyone then have the knowledge to fix it, or the parts?
Are guitar amps becoming like computers? After 5 years a computer is obsolete and almost useless for modern software, but I don't believe guitar amps are in the same category... maybe for some they are, some kinds of players probably always want the newest thing out... but old Fenders and Marshalls still seem to be popular and useful... and easily repairable... what of the new solid-state and digital stuff? Use it and toss it when it wears out?
I might easily be wrong, but it just seems to me like the newer stuff is not intended to last 20-30 or more years, like the old stuff, and I'm betting there will be NO support from the manufacturers for any of this stuff a few years after they're discontinued, same as with most consumer-electronic devices. Any comments? |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 11 Oct 2007 4:29 pm
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If you're letting a bunch of irresponsible idiots handle your stuff, then you should invest in good road cases for all of it. (And YOU should be putting it in the cases!) Modern solid-state stuff is far more rugged (except for the chee-pass controls and jacks they use). Tubes are easier to replace, but far more expensive now than pots or jacks.
Either type of amp has it's advantages, but you're real problem is those clowns you're letting handle your gear. |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 11 Oct 2007 4:46 pm
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| Quote: |
| .......but you're real problem is those clowns you're letting handle your gear. |
True, the responsibility is really mine, for letting them carry it... I had thought they would respect someone else's property, despite the fact that anyone can look at their stuff and see that they don't even take care of their own. My mistake. After getting the shaft (ha) I stopped leaving anything with them.
I still wonder about how well the new stuff will hold up in 20 or 30 years though, even with normal use, and whether they'll be maintainable.
What happens when your digital effects amp modelling whatever craps out in 15 years... changing a cap, resister or tube in an old Fender is easier, in fact it's POSSIBLE.... what about one of these new amps with a mess of IC's? All it takes is a static charge or slight overvoltage to destroy an IC...a surge or some kind of problem in the power supply could fry a lot of stuff... Is that really going to last 15+ years? ....Or does anyone plan to even keep one that long?
Last edited by Jim Phelps on 12 Oct 2007 11:29 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 11 Oct 2007 7:31 pm
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| Quote: |
| What happens when your digital effects amp modelling whatever craps out in 15 years... |
Unless you're absolutely in love with it, you toss it and buy a new one (which will in all likelihood be better and cheaper). Here's a reality check - when I bought my B/F Twin Reverb new, in 1966, I paid $525 for it. That's the equivalent of about 3 grand today! The only reason I kept it, and took so good care of it, was that it cost a small fortune.
| Quote: |
| ...changing a cap, resister or tube in an old Fender is easier, in fact it's POSSIBLE.... what about one of these new amps with a mess of IC's? All it takes is a static charge or slight overvoltage to destroy an IC...a surge or some kind of problem in the power supply could fry a lot of stuff... |
Those problems (voltage spikes) are really over-exaggerated - that's why they sell so many surge protectors. Damage of that sort is quite rare, nowadays. In fact, most ESD damage is caused by sloppy techs who initiate latent failures during routine service and modifications.
| Quote: |
| Is that really going to last 15+ years? ....Or does anyone plan to even keep one that long? |
My main amp, a solid-state Peavey, is going strong at almost 25 years old. The only time it's failed is when a tipsy patron spilled about a tablespoon of beer in the top vent. That cooked the output transistors and the speakers. That damage probably wouldn't have occured if some doofus engineer hadn't thought that top vents are a good idea. (Criminy, even dinosaur Bogen finally ditched the "top-vent" design in their amps!)
Solid-state devices generally last far longer than tube amps (before they require service) due to the fact that there's nothing in there that runs at several hundred degrees, as tubes do. (Heat is the real killer of parts in tube amps.)
Yeah, the 15-cent jacks and 25-cent pots that Peavey and Fender use aren't anywhere near as good as the old, all-metal parts, but those cost-cutting measures (along with cheap foreign labor) DO let us buy a decent amp today for a fraction of what one used to cost (in equivalent dollars).
Everything in life is a trade-off. |
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Doug Beaumier
From:
Northampton, MA
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Posted 11 Oct 2007 7:39 pm
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I don't let anyone handle my guitars or amps, and I Never load my gear into a "band truck". I learned my lesson the hard way!
As far as solid state amps and digital gear, I think it's a good idea to upgrade every 10 years or so. They have a fairly long lifespan, but when they die they are not easy to repair. Just my opinion. As far as Guitar amps... tubes all the way! Tube amps are easier to repair, and they will go forever with occasional servicing. I'm still playing my '67 Vibrolux Reverb on guitar gigs. You can bet no roadie will ever touch that! 
_________________
My Site / My YouTube Channel
25 Songs C6 Lap Steel / 25 MORE Songs C6 Lap Steel / 16 Songs, C6, A6, B11 / 60 Popular Melodies E9 Pedal Steel |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 11 Oct 2007 7:59 pm
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Not that I want to argue with you Donny but I don't agree completely with everything you say...
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
Unless you're absolutely in love with it, you toss it and buy a new one (which will in all likelihood be better and cheaper). |
So your answer to my question is basically, "yes, if it breaks you throw it away", which means that today's products are essentially disposable.
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Here's a reality check - when I bought my B/F Twin Reverb new, in 1966, I paid $525 for it. That's the equivalent of about 3 grand today! The only reason I kept it, and took so good care of it, was that it cost a small fortune. |
And today, "about 3 grand" is almost what you'd have to pay for that 66 BF Twin in excellent condition! FWIW. And all the modelling amps are trying to get the BF and old Marshall sounds.
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Those problems (voltage spikes) are really over-exaggerated - that's why they sell so many surge protectors. Damage of that sort is quite rare, nowadays. In fact, most ESD damage is caused by sloppy techs who initiate latent failures during routine service and modifications. |
Only a couple years ago a buddy of mine in Arizona had his Marshall combo amp fried by a power surge. Last year I lost a TV, clock radio and the wall-warts to my DSL modem and cordless phone to a power surge. Of course that's in Mexico, where the power is not as stable as the U.S., but try to remember that although the U.S. is the best country in the world, it's not the only country in the world.  There are plenty of guitar amps and other delicate electronic gear in other countries. I'll grant that probably more surge protectors are sold than needed, but the same could probably be said for household smoke detectors. Better to have one and not need it than need one and not have it. S**t happens.
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| My main amp, a solid-state Peavey, is going strong at almost 25 years old. The only time it's failed is when a tipsy patron spilled about a tablespoon of beer in the top vent. That cooked the output transistors and the speakers. That damage probably wouldn't have occured if some doofus engineer hadn't thought that top vents are a good idea. (Criminy, even dinosaur Bogen finally ditched the "top-vent" design in their amps!) |
OK, but that's 25 years old. It probably hasn't got a lot of microprocessors in it. Todays modelling and digital effects amps do and they're a lot more sensitive and delicate.
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Solid-state devices generally last far longer than tube amps (before they require service) due to the fact that there's nothing in there that runs at several hundred degrees, as tubes do. (Heat is the real killer of parts in tube amps.) |
True but life before failure isn't part of my question. What to do after the failure occurs is my question, which to reiterate is basically, what can you do if your fancy digital microprocessor-based amp craps? You have answered that, "Unless you're absolutely in love with it, you toss it and buy a new one". Pretty much what I thought too.
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Yeah, the 15-cent jacks and 25-cent pots that Peavey and Fender use aren't anywhere near as good as the old, all-metal parts, but those cost-cutting measures (along with cheap foreign labor) DO let us buy a decent amp today for a fraction of what one used to cost (in equivalent dollars). |
So it seems that you're saying that probably nothing will go wrong for a while with today's new stuff, and when it does you can throw it away and get a new, better one. That pretty much confirms all the implications in my original post about today's technology being disposable and probably designed with that in mind. |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 11 Oct 2007 8:00 pm
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| Doug Beaumier wrote: |
| I don't let anyone handle my guitars or amps, and I Never load my gear into a "band truck". I learned my lesson the hard way! |
A wise man, and I've just learned the same way.
| Doug Beaumier wrote: |
| As far as solid state amps and digital gear, I think it's a good idea to upgrade every 10 years or so. They have a fairly long lifespan, but when they die they are not easy to repair. Just my opinion. As far as Guitar amps... tubes all the way! Tube amps are easier to repair, and they will go forever with occasional servicing. I'm still playing my '67 Vibrolux Reverb on guitar gigs. You can bet no roadie will ever touch that! |
I completely agree.  |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 11 Oct 2007 9:36 pm
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BTW, I'm not just talking something like a complete blow-up or fry in the case of the newer amps; I mean stuff like worn-out or broken controls, hardware, other parts needed for proper operation. I've seen some modeling amps even with liquid-crystal displays... what's going to happen if after a few years something happens to that?
I have an Aiwa recording walkman I bought in the late '80's, paid about $200 for it, worked perfectly for years and then the LCD got cracked. Where am I going to get one? Nowhere, it's toast now because of that.
New designs use the latest in switching, controls, keypads, etc. After a few years those models are replaced with newer controls, switches, etc. I've seen some amps with rotary knobs for selecting amp models. What happens when that knob wears out or gets dirty? They don't make them repairable now, you've got to replace them... and later the manufacturer isn't going to feel it's necessary to support a 10+ year old design and you're going to have to buy a new amp.
Just try and replace the keypad or LCD on a cellphone or laptop computer a few years old, or with newer parts not made for it, you can't. They're done.
I'm not saying the new stuff isn't good equipment... but it's just a bit disconcerting to me that there is just no way this stuff is built to last or be maintained for more than a few years. I would probably have to say that there are several amp manufacturers making fairly straightforward amps that look like they could probably be kept going for a long time... but there are many being made that I don't believe will be working in 20 years, and most likely a lot of old tube amps (and old Peavey Sessions) still will be.
For these reasons I'm not sure I want to buy a new amp, when I know I can find any part I need and put it in myself, for my old '68 Bandmaster and it will probably still be making music when I'm long gone.
Of course, I may just get one of those new modeling amp jobs anyway, just to fool around with...
Just my own opinion and thoughts. |
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Keith Cordell
From:
San Diego
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Posted 11 Oct 2007 11:10 pm
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| The easiest wayto avoid all that disposable stuff is.... DON'T BUY IT. There is still great gear out there, and all that digital junk that will be unrepairable in a few years can just be avoided. If you spend a little time looking and dickering, you can get a great rig together without spending mich more than you will on the "disposable" stuff. If I can't get it repaired by my amp tech or replace it easily, I don't buy it. |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 12 Oct 2007 4:33 am
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Jim.
Don't MAKE me post another request for a JP "Update".
It's GREAT to read of you gigging down there, and I'm sure you can post some details about it without falling in with the "Man who rode the Mule around the World" crowd.
I've always known that hand trucks are the biggest enemy of any circuit board tube, or capacitor, and never used one til the last ten years or so when I just plain got old..
{Now at least the fold up one I have has soft wheels. I carry extra 6L6es and 84s for my HRD and BlsJr.}
My Session 500 has been floor mounted in my basement about the same amount of time.
My Nvl400 is the most indestructable machine I've ever owned. The Nashville 112s knobs are falling off like the leaves this time of year.
Gotta run.
Seriously. Give us an update.
YF.
EJL |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 12 Oct 2007 8:40 am
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| Quote: |
| "yes, if it breaks you throw it away", which means that today's products are essentially disposable. |
Essentially, no. Practically, yes. Anything can be fixed or repaired. But you have to ask yourself...Is it really worth it?" Look Jim, I have no problem with players pouring money into either expensive digital modelers, or expensive (or expensive to maintain) older or boutique tube amps. I do, however, have a problem when someone touts them as "essential". Neither one is essential until someone thinks they are. Of course, entire cottage industries are built around supposedly "irreplaceable" equipment, and many people stand to financially benefit from this type of mindset, whether it's credible or not.
You can either spend your life complaining about present-day guitars and amps, or you can just go ahead and play. Use and enjoy whatever you like (you can continue to use the old gear or boutique stuff, too).
Just remember...there ain't no "free ride", I don't care what you use. There's an up-side, and a down-side to everything out there.
Handle it.  |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 17 Oct 2007 9:56 am
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..
Last edited by Jim Phelps on 17 Oct 2007 10:29 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 17 Oct 2007 10:13 am
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..
Last edited by Jim Phelps on 17 Oct 2007 10:30 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Jim Phelps
From:
Mexico City, Mexico
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Posted 17 Oct 2007 10:15 am
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| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| Anything can be fixed or repaired. |
You'd think so, wouldn't you? But that's one of those sayings that seems so logical and sensible that it gets repeated so often without any real thought or experience behind it. No, "anything" can NOT be repaired.
Example. The battery door on my old digital camera is broken. Parts are not available and it can't be fixed by any kind of glue. The camera is useless because of it. How is this repairable, unless I can get a replacement part, which are not available? By "anything is repairable", do you mean that I, and any of us, should be able to mold, carve, stamp, cut or somehow similar craft our own replacement part? That's a bit beyond most of our capabilities I would think. I'd be happy to send it you Donny, and you can repair it for me?
I bought it in 1999, so it's oooooold. Time to throw it away, the new ones do so much more, right? ... but it took good pictures and was still useful to me. I think some of the new amps are in for the same situation, not a broken battery door obviously but some similar part that can't be user-repaired or fabricated, and unavailable. Not all of us have the money to buy anything at anytime, Donny.
| Donny Hinson wrote: |
| You can either spend your life complaining...Just remember...there ain't no "free ride", I don't care what you use. There's an up-side, and a down-side to everything out there....Handle it." |
Thanks a lot. The point of this thread was to ask the question of whether anyone else has noticed that some new music equipment seems to be at least in my opinion, becoming more difficult if not impossible to maintain, and likely be impossible once parts or factory service are not available. I think that's a fair question given the evidence, and your "you can spend your life complaining" remark is typically off and insulting. Bringing up a somewhat negative aspect to something isn't always just "complaining". It was intended to open some discussion, get opinions, and maybe even make some people aware of a trend that they might not even be aware of. I don't view that as complaining, but obviously you do.
Eric, thanks for asking about an update on the music in Mexico. I'll have to get my thoughts in order a bit on that and get it written down... not sure if anything interesting has happened really, there was some apparent interest by some TV show producers and even EMI in a collaboration between myself and a well Mexican guitarist, but nothing seems to be happening lately... so probably just another of those "almosts". Still playing with the "fiesta" group, weddings and other parties etc. I'll try to pick out some interesting stories and write them down. Thanks again for asking.
Close it up anytime, b0b.
Last edited by Jim Phelps on 17 Oct 2007 10:41 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Joey Ace
From:
Hamilton, Ontario, Canada
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Posted 17 Oct 2007 11:05 am
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Closed per request.
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