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Topic: Anatomy of a Country song.. |
Bill Dobkins
From:
Rolla Missouri, USA
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Posted 7 Oct 2007 7:02 pm |
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What makes a country song. I think we all will agree that country music is a feeling that has to touch you
in some way. Its an emotion and has to to convey that emotion with the sound of Steel and Fiddle ect..
Like Blues isn't Blues without a blues harp a slide and so on. A programmed drum beat with no tone change
(Rap Crap) isn't Blues. If country music doesn't have the right instrumentation there's no feeling.
Distorted Guitars have a place but not in country.
When Bella Flack was on the scene his music was called progressive bluegrass, so why can't the new country be billed as such, Progressive country. And leave country,,country..What do you think ?
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Charles Davidson
From:
Phenix City Alabama, USA
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Posted 8 Oct 2007 12:24 am
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I agree Bill, this contemporary so-called country music is NOT country,For any of you that do like it,thats fine,listen to it twenty four seven,you have every right to,watch Gac or CMT all day and night if you please,Just please don't call it country music,it's NOT,Don't you know.
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Hard headed, opinionated old geezer. BAMA CHARLIE. GOD BLESS AMERICA. ANIMAL RIGHTS ACTIVIST. SUPPORT LIVE MUSIC ! |
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Dom Franco
From:
Beaverton, OR, 97007
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Posted 8 Oct 2007 5:39 am Which Country?
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Where do you draw the Line?
Was the Scottish/Irish (Bagpipe inluenced)-Fiddle drone notes of 1700's American Colonies Folk Music Country?
Was The Banjo and Vocal driven 1800's (Black Southern Gospel, Sprituals) Country?
Were the Western Cowboy prairie songs Country?
Were the Hillbilly, Jug band, Washboard Guitar/Dobro "Bluegrass" styles of the early 1900's Country?
Were Hank Williams, Roy Acuff and Bob Wills Mid 1900's (varied styles) Country?
How about, Chet Atkins, Marty Robbins, Eddy Arnold, Jim Reeves in the 1960's Was that Country?
Then the Bakersfield sound of Merle and Buck or the Outlaws of Willie and Waylon, Were they Country?
On to the Eagles, Asleep at the Wheel, Commando Cody, Poco, Pure Prairie League... Country?
Garth, Alan Jackson, Alabama, Brookes and Dunne.. Country?
Where do You draw the line?
I don't. I love it all and play it all.
Sincerely;
Dom Franco |
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Theresa Galbraith
From:
Goodlettsville,Tn. USA
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Posted 8 Oct 2007 7:32 am
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Dom,
I agree!  |
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Richard Sevigny
From:
Salmon Arm, BC, Canada
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Posted 8 Oct 2007 7:45 am
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I agree with Dom too. Country isn't a specific instrumentation. It's the one-AND-two-AND-three-AND-(sometimes four-AND) feel. Fiddle and steel became associated with the sound because that's what the musicians happened to play.
With all due respect Bill and Charlie, what you guys are saying about "modern country" people said about country swing and Buck Owens (who was a big fan of Chuck Berry) way back when.
_________________
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If at first the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it.
-Albert Einstein |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 8 Oct 2007 8:04 am
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Thanks for that excellent post, Dom.
With all the denigration of today's music - especially here on the Forum - I've found myself wondering how Buck Owens and Merle Haggard were received by the die-hard country music fans of their day. Those biting Telecasters must have been anathema to them!
I'm from Britain, and I can assure you that country music was not a part of our musical diet back in those days. I was prejudiced against what I saw as 'hillbilly' music, and couldn't bear to listen to it. But - when I was introduced to the sound of Buck Owens and Don Rich, I couldn't get enough! It was close to rock'n'roll, with an added spice in the vocal sound with those tight, Everly-like harmonies and an almost James Burton-styled lead guitar.
That was my indoctrination, and I eventually came to enjoy a lot of what had preceded these groundbreaking artists.
What's on the radio today IS country music. Every style of music morphs with each generation, and this is what country music has now become. Personally, I like some of it, I can take or leave some of it, and I loathe the rest! But that was always true.
I gave a ride to a dear old friend of mine recently, and she hates country with a passion! As she flicked through the stations on my car radio, she'd exclaim - "Yuk! Country!!", and scan for something else. So, you see, to the undiscerning ear, there's not any real difference in today's and yesterday's country music...
Oh, and I must wholeheartedly agree that the music is NOT defined by the instrumental line-up. That's absurd!
RR |
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Bill Dobkins
From:
Rolla Missouri, USA
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Posted 8 Oct 2007 8:15 am
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Your missing the point: Dom you have mentioned 5 styles of music. Irish and Scotish of which I desend from both. That music is still around, they have huge gathering's several times a year. They have bagpipes and fiddles but they don't call it country. The people who go are very proud of thier heritage and love this music.The Eagles never claimed to be country. Poco, the Daredevils, the Eagles and so on were labeled Country Rock (remember) Asleep at the Wheel are western swing.Blue grass has a distinct sound and emotion to it.Alan Jackson is country, Alabama I would consider country. The point I'm trying to make is that I feel that the tradition and the roots of country music are being stomped on.Rascall Flats, although I do like some of thier stuff are more country rock that they are country.
But it don't mean they don't have a place in music.
This little war will never end until people understand the Anatomy of the country song and realize the differance. Maybe we should take all music, Gospel,Rap,Oprea,rock,country and bluegrass ECT. pour it in a blender and let go. And say to hell with tradition and heritage. This is it, like it or shut up.It seems every one can have thier own tradition and style of music but not us true country lovers.....Try taking a amp to a bluegrass jam and see what happens. 
_________________
Custom Rittenberry SD10
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Honor our Vet's.
Now pass the gravy. |
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Chuck Thompson
From:
Illinois, USA
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Posted 8 Oct 2007 9:31 am Should we lose our appeal or our soul and indentity?
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WOW! Bill thanks for the opportunity to vent on what I think is an excellent and important subject. Pardon me if I get a little long winded. For a while I have been torn on the subject myself. Should we look for a balance when indentifying what is "country music"? If we are playing music, we are in a certain manner, ambassadors of that music and I suppose we should be grateful that today poses an opportunity for some to be exposed to country music that may otherwise not. Certainly what many die-hard traditionalists accept today as country music today at one time was outside the bounds. Drums used to be a no-no. Sure it's frustrating that what is being packaged and sold is often Sex appeal, shallow lyrics and almost a parody of the music we love. (Have you noticed that alot of today's "outlaws" fit a package and perception, being more known for being "bad" in actions and dress, but instead of rebelling against the mainstream music power and having something viable to say musically or lyrically are actually just embracing that "package"?) BUT - We can become so insular in our view that we become exclusive. On the other hand the music can try to be so open that it loses it's identity and soul. Either way it dies and either way it seems like it becomes predictable and boring. No doubt the "industry" looks for mass appeal more so now than ever but it has been that way for a long time. Still occasionally neat things slip through the cracks just they did years ago. The music industry still seems to have a "cookie cutter, dog-pack after the rabbit" commercial mentality. Radio stations may be narrow minded and stuck on mass appeal money but now we have the internet with "word of mouth" and direct access to traditional style artists and "real alternative" artists who have something musical and lyrical to say that fits the "country music" mold. Sorry for a long winded answer to "what do you think?" Simple answer - "I don't know"  |
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Leroy Riggs
From:
Looney Tunes, R.I.P.
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Posted 8 Oct 2007 10:16 am
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If the music sounds like it has audio level compression or any heavy distortion, it's can't be country. (That should raise the hair on the necks of more than a few!) 
_________________
A truly happy person is one who can enjoy the scenery on a detour.
..... |
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Richard Sevigny
From:
Salmon Arm, BC, Canada
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Posted 8 Oct 2007 10:36 am
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| Quote: |
| Try taking a amp to a bluegrass jam and see what happens. |
| Quote: |
| Drums used to be a no-no |
Answer:
| Quote: |
| We can become so insular in our view that we become exclusive. |
But, seriously..
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| Your missing the point |
I don't beleive so. I don't see any music as a static entity. It continues to evolve. If it didn't, there probably wouldn't even be country, or even bluegrass. We'd still be singing gregorian chants or throat singing like the Inuits.
Yes, the great hits of yesterday survive. That's why there's a huge body of classical music out there. That's why Chuck Berry is still huge. It still connects with people.
You can insist that country is an art form set in stone, like cave paintings done with earth and organic pigments in a dank hole in the ground to the light of wooden torches. You will probably find that the appeal of that art form will diminish, and the fan base will disappear. At some point, you have to open the tent up to new ideas, or no one will want to come in and see what the fuss is about.
_________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If at first the idea is not absurd, then there is no hope for it.
-Albert Einstein |
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Dayna Wills
From:
Sacramento, CA (deceased)
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Posted 8 Oct 2007 11:43 am
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| Growing up, I couldn't stand country music or Uncle Bob's music which I heard constantly. I was a rock fan. I think I didn't like country because I was too young to relate to a divorce, having my car repossesed, gettin' drunk and goin' to jail, etc. You have to have lived to have appreciated the country pre-70's. I also discovered that I couldn't appreciate the merits of different styles of music while comparing them to MY fave. Once I learned to quit comparing and listened to what other styles had to offer, that's when my music appreciation education began. |
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Bill Dobkins
From:
Rolla Missouri, USA
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Posted 8 Oct 2007 12:23 pm
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Richard, you are right to a point. Music does evolve and country wasn't always like it was 10 years ago.
There are a lot of us who love the classic country sound.But I also love good blues,strings,AC/DC,The Dobbie Bros,ZZ Tops and so on. I like all kinds of music. But when I listen to these different style's thats what I want to hear. I don't want to listen to your cheatin heart with a screaming guitar solo.
I'm all for music growing. If I don't like it I don't have to listen to it. I do like to listen to the classic country sound,with Steel and fiddle but if I don't buy it I don't hear it.
_________________
Custom Rittenberry SD10
Boss Katana 100 Amp
Positive Grid Spark amp
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Honor our Vet's.
Now pass the gravy. |
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Dennis Graves
From:
Maryville, Tennessee
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Posted 8 Oct 2007 1:32 pm
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| To know what real country music is, just listen to George Jones |
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Tim Harr
From:
Dunlap, Illinois
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Posted 8 Oct 2007 3:32 pm
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Bill,
I am hearing a lot of "they dont get it"...."you're missing the point" and "you dont understand"
Where do you draw your knowledge base from .. how do you qualify as being correct or knowing what is not. |
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Roger Rettig
From:
Naples, FL
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Posted 8 Oct 2007 3:47 pm
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Tim,
Thanks for saying that! I was thinking the same thing but had decided to leave it alone.
The line of Bill's that struck me was:
"This little war will never end until...." - and here I wanted to insert:
"....everyone agrees with me!"
I usually start participating in a thread with great optimism for a lively informed discourse, but generally withdraw frustrated (Like I probably should have with this one!)
RR |
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Joe Miraglia
From:
Jamestown N.Y.
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Posted 8 Oct 2007 3:55 pm
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What is City music? City music is not what it used to be. Don't call todays City music ,City music. SORRY wrong post  .Joe |
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Bill Dobkins
From:
Rolla Missouri, USA
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Posted 8 Oct 2007 4:11 pm
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Tim,I could ask you the same question ? If your asking for a resume you won't get one. I'm not a record producer or work for MCA but I know what good music is. I've played music since I was 12 and I'll be 62 in Nov. I never claimed to be an expert and I will not be singled out. This is not about me it's about
a lot of people just like me who don't understand why certian people want to destroy the tradition of country music.Why can't it be understood that there is a difference in country music and simply seperate into pop country and country. Why don't they go after bluegrass or opera for example.
It has been mentioned that I have shown disrespect for some of the Steelers on this site, when indeed a lot of them are friends of mine.
In fact if this trend of blender type country continues these people won't be working at all.
Fiddle and Steel are being phased out just like the traditional sound of country.....Next ?
_________________
Custom Rittenberry SD10
Boss Katana 100 Amp
Positive Grid Spark amp
BJS Bars
Z~Legend Pro,Custom Tele
Honor our Vet's.
Now pass the gravy. |
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James Cann
From:
Phoenix, AZ
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Posted 8 Oct 2007 5:06 pm
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| Quote: |
| To know what real country music is, just listen to George Jones. |
Or, more to the point (and with all due respect), check out Vernon Oxford's "This Woman Is Mine" on YouTube: the most representational example of country music I've ever seen and heard. |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 8 Oct 2007 5:38 pm
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| Quote: |
| This little war will never end until people understand the Anatomy of the country song and realize the differance. |
I honestly didn't know there was a "country music war" going on. I think most of the rest of the world is completely unaware. 
Seriously, though - I think Dom has it right. The term "country music" has, for a long time, been an umbrella for a lot of different styles of music that are the musical progeny of the music early English and Scotch-Irish settlers brought with them to the New World. There's old-time Appalachian string music, early acoustic and traditional country music like that practiced by the Carter Family, bluegrass, Western music, Western swing music, Nashville country music (which itself has several incarnations), the Bakersfield sound, the whole outlaw movement, the "new traditionalists", newgrass, country-rock, modern country, and no doubt others. Each of these styles have quite a lot of things in common. Nobody has exclusive ownership of the concept of country music, IMO.
Bill - you know, I even agree with your post's main premise - that there is something, perhaps tangible and perhaps somewhat intangible, that makes me know that something is "REAL" country, blues, rockabilly, jazz, or any particular style. I even agree that some music coming out of, for example Nashville, isn't really out of the "country music" tradition. I just call it something else and move on, it's just a marketing tag. But I think it's absurd to argue that there isn't lots of modern country music that is absolutely recognizable by most anybody as from the the true "country music" lineage.
To me, insisting that everyone must follow some absolute, fixed, dyed-in-the-wool tradition or be pedantically labeled a "completely different species" is unreasonably rigid. Music - and especially popular music - is a living art form. It either evolves or dies out. If you insist on enbalming it to keep it from growing, it will die. I agree that growth shouldn't decimate the art form, but add to it.
This realize is old news - but this is not a new "war". The exact same stuff was argued in decades past. "Oh, what's the world coming to, those &@$%^&! drums and amplified guitars and pedal steel guitars, what a racket. Will those kids show no respect to their elders? Country music went to blazes after Uncle Dave Macon died. If God had wanted us to use amplifiers, he'd have built them into spruce trees so that when Martin made a "REAL" guitar, it would already be built into the top."
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| Why don't they go after bluegrass or opera for example. |
They have. Bluegrass spawned newgrass. Nobody but a hardcore "By God" bluegrasser would say newgrass isn't related to bluegrass. Same with blues - not too many mainstream stylists out there replicating Charley Patton and Tampa Red, but blues is a thriving musical culture. Jazz, rockabilly, you name it. The evolution of these has emphatically not hurt the original, IMO. Instead, old blues, jazz, rockabilly, and bluegrass artists are revered by a much larger community. Don't fight it - you can't win, IMO. Instead, try to educate and bring people into the fold.
One thing I feel pretty confident about - if you insist on fighting the tide of youth and the march of time, you will lose. Time is always on their side, and they will ultimately win any cultural "war" if for no other reason than by attrition. If you want to convince anybody of the value of your ideas, you must make a convincing argument that appeals to their minds and their hearts. Just complaining that the world is going to blazes and your view is the only "correct" one will never cut it.
Myself, I want to know and play traditional country music, but not be limited by it. I want to expand its vocabulary by bringing in new approaches and mixing with other styles that fit with it. Do you really think the people like Jimmie Rogers, the Delmore Brothers, Hank Williams, Bob Wills, and Buck Owens weren't influenced by the popular music of the day - styles that ran from blues to mainstream jazz or rock and roll? Seriously?
All my opinions, of course. |
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Larry Strawn
From:
Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.
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Posted 8 Oct 2007 7:22 pm
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Dave M.
Excellent observations and post!
_________________
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"ROCKIN COUNTRY" |
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Tim Harr
From:
Dunlap, Illinois
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Posted 9 Oct 2007 9:35 am
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Dave - Well put.
Bill,
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| Tim,I could ask you the same question ? |
Why, I am not telling others they dont get it otr that they do not understand. I was just curious why you get to be right and everyone else is wrong.
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I never claimed to be an expert and I will not be singled out. |
You singled yourself out all on your own with your opinion that: others besides you are not "getting it" or are "missing the point".
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| It has been mentioned that I have shown disrespect for some of the Steelers on this site, when indeed a lot of them are friends of mine |
Having an opinion is OK... we all all entitled to have one ..however, we all do not have to agree with each other all of the time....and when we don't that doesn't make anyone wrong.
Your opinion is valid and you make some excellent points...of which I do not exactly agree with.
Thanks! |
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Joe Miraglia
From:
Jamestown N.Y.
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Posted 9 Oct 2007 10:29 am
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| Dennis Graves wrote: |
| To know what real country music is, just listen to George Jones. |
Just listen to Alan Jackson do Tall Tall Trees, Josh Turner--Your Man. There are more, but if you don't care to listen to any song less that 40 years old, how would you know? Who's going To Fill Their Shoes? Josh, Alan, George S. and more will fill their shoes. After all, life goes on. Joe |
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Tim Harr
From:
Dunlap, Illinois
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Posted 9 Oct 2007 10:37 am
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Great post Joe.
Tall, Tall, Trees is a Roger Miller song I think..
It's hard to beat that songwriting!
TH |
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Joe Stoebenau
From:
Pennsylvania, USA
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Posted 9 Oct 2007 12:12 pm
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Maybe they can go back to writing songs about trucks that don't start, wives that left and dogs that died.
Seriously, though as far as the new country goes,
I think Alan Jackson has the "sound". I guess he's not even one of the new guys anymore either! |
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Bill Dobkins
From:
Rolla Missouri, USA
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Posted 9 Oct 2007 2:49 pm
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This makes the third time I've tried to post my response So maybe this time. When I say you don't get it or you dont understand this is what I mean:
It take's a certian instrumentation to create a country song, Steel and Fiddle ect. Same with Blues, Rock N Roll and so on. Thats how we can tell the difference. Be it old or new country it still has to have that sound to be country and have that emotion. I work very hard with people like Tracy Pitcock and the Texas country music association trying to put this music back into the mainstream. I like and play all kinds of music.Delta Blues has a unique sound. When you hear it you know its delta blues. It has a heritage behind it. I feel the same way about country. It has a unique sound with Steel and fiddle ect. I know it has evloved into what it is today but tons of people still like it but are being denied access to it. Here's a challenge, someone listen to a major radio station and count how many songs have a fiddle you here. Where do we draw the line, well thats what a lot of us are trying to do. Is it so wrong to keep it country, to keep that sound of a Steel and Fiddle seperate from distorted guitars, to seperate Country from pop Country. I have nothing against the new music. As a matter of fact Rascall Flatts can cut one of my songs any time.
I just feel we are losing part of our heritage. Every time this comes up an argument insues, which I don't understand. And to say that I am showing disrespect to my fellow Steeler's is ludicris. It's one of my fears that Steel and Fiddle are being phased out along with the sound of country music.
_________________
Custom Rittenberry SD10
Boss Katana 100 Amp
Positive Grid Spark amp
BJS Bars
Z~Legend Pro,Custom Tele
Honor our Vet's.
Now pass the gravy. |
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