I totally support b0b's new policy re sale of used courses

John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

I hope everyone reselling instructional courses will follow b0b's new policy of sending the original authors a 20% commission on the sale. Creating, publishing and selling steel guitar instructional material is such a small-scale, barely profitable enterprise, I wish people wouldn't resell them at all, thus ensuring that the content authors continually make sales, which encourages further course creation, which is a benefit for us all. But this idea of b0b's seems like a fair proposition to me.

I guess the principle applies whether you bought the course new or used, either way send a cut to the author.

This is probably unheard of in most commercial arenas, but it is indicative of how the steel community look after its own.

Very Happy

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Jim Saunders · From: Houston, Texas, U.S.A.

This is a slippery slope. I agree that we should not copy copyrighted material and sell illegal copies. But, selling an original, purchased legally, seems to be a different matter. The artist and publisher have already been compensated. So, if the publisher got his commission for the original sale, then it's later resold, does the seller get another commission? How about used cars? You buy a new Chevy from a GM dealer and two years later sell it to someone; does GM get another cut?? Humm? Just thinking here. Or, say you buy a new Carter steel from Carter, then two years later sell it to someone on the Forum. Does Carter get a cut? Humm??

Ken Pippus · From: Langford, BC, Canada

I agree with Jim Saunders. A significant consideration in the purchase of a vehicle is its resale value. I think a lot of us are more willing to spend the big bucks for "Name Brand" steel instruction because we feel we might get something back at the end. Now I suppose I'm 20% less likely.

For what it's worth, I play several other instruments, and the cheapest thing in the Newman catalog that interests me is about $5.00 more than the most expensive trumpet book I ever bought.

KP

Joseph Barcus · From: Volga West Virginia

as a seller they know that the chance of the material sold after its been used is there and I am sure that they also have bought used material as well.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Well, you can always sell it on eBay if you don't like the rules here.

The alternative, from my point of view, was to simply disallow the selling of used courses here. This is a compromise that I think people can live with.

The car analogy doesn't hold up, BTW. You don't gain permanent knowledge from using a car, and you can't stick a car in a xerox machine before you sell it.
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Joseph Barcus · From: Volga West Virginia

I was just giving my thoughts on the issue and dont plan on and sales of courses here never have and most likely never will. as far as ebay goes bob I am a big ebay person I sale $3000.00 or more in the ebay world on records and for the most part the artist applys the same way as your thinking goes they sold there records for 8 to 10.00 and in some cases I have got as much as 1500.00 out of some records. again just all how one looks at it. and this is your forum and you have 100% right to set the rules. please have a great evening

Therman Jones · From: Stillwater, OK USA

Well, I'm a new member here so my opinion doesn't mean much, But...this new policy just doesn't seem like a very fair way to help out the multitude of publishers represented by the seven (so far) who have signed on to the list. May I offer a couple of suggestions that would add some more contributions to their well deserved income.

No. 1 - In the future, instead of selling your instruction tabs, book, CD, thereby conveying certain rights of ownership to the purchaser; lease the material to the student for a predetermined time, after which the material would be returned to the author or a new lease established. i.e. instead of paying $40. to someone to receive a tab and CD of his version of Crazy Arms, just lease it for a year and then return it. In keeping with the philosophy of the previously mentioned General Motors, the cost would be $45.00 and you would be allowed to play the song 10,000 times at no additional charge.

No. 2 - In this step we recognize the creative contributions of the instructor by paying a flat rate royalty each time we perform a song that we learned from said instructor's material. Simply send a quarter $.25 to (fill in the name) every time you perform one of his creations. Don't you know these guys can use the extra money and it would motivate more players to get in the business of sharing their expertise.

Seriously folks, I've spent hundreds of dollars in the past for instructional material and I'll spend more in the future to buy good quality, well presented material.

b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

Don't blame the publishers. I made the rule, with no prompting from them. Also, I made the list of addresses without consulting them. This is entirely my idea.

Would you feel better if I charged a 20% commission for use of the Forum to sell these items, and sent the money to the publishers myself? Like I said, if you don't like the percentage, sell your stuff on eBay instead. Every marketplace has its costs.

This all started when I got an email asking "How much do I owe you for selling a Jeff Newman course on the forum?" I replied: "You don't owe me anything, but maybe you should think about sending Fran Newman something."
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John McClung · From: Olympia WA, USA

Another business model is the college bookstore: you buy a book, new or used, then sell it back to the store for a fraction of what you paid when the semester ends. The bookstore resells it, makes more money of course, but everyone wins, sort of.

In our case, course buyers sell it back to the author for that fraction of new price, and the author can resell the used course at less than new, so someone out there still gets a good deal, but the author reaps more reward, and rightfully so.

Just thoughts...
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Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Well, from a very small publisher/author (me) of about a dozen programs that do pretty well in the scheme of things, here's my take.

A few months back I saw where someone was selling off a few programs that they had purchased from me, and even better, someone BOUGHT them !

I felt pretty good. Very humble, but still very good.

I have also been contacted by others who somehow got a copy of one of my programs and they purchased additional programs direct from me.

I don't necessarily disagree with Bobs format, but at the same time it seems a bit weird, paying someone again for something you already paid for !

I generally sell from EBAY or thru my website anyway, quite frankly I don't use the Forum to offer programs.

The TAB section offers tons of FREE stuff , why would someone pay for a program when they can get other stuff for free ?

I have executed the NO COMPETE clause !

For me it's not really about the money , the programs are more about putting something out there that can get others going, a complete project at a price that is legit. Each program easily has 20 or 30 hours of work as well as up front licensing fee's paid, unless they are original songs which require copyright fees.

I really don't have any problem with the resale as long as it is the original in tact package. But if someone wants to send me $1.00 ok then, send it !Heck I prefer $5 bills ! Smile

PS, a few who have made purchases from me have sent me MP3's of there playing over the program tracks..
you wanna talk about a FEEL GOOD moment !

Thats what I'm talkin' about ....

Terry Sneed · From: Arkansas,

bob drawbaugh · From: scottsboro, al. usa

Bob, Why not the same deal for builders. After all they are small mom and pop companys for the most part. They could also benifit from the same logic. for the most part I don't buy or sell anything on the forum.I'll give it away or just hang on to it, I'm like a pack rat that way. I do find it a little strange that you would want me to pay for something twice just to sell it on the forum. I don't blame the venders for the Rule, but I would have a hard time buying something from them if they would support shuch a rule. But as someone said you are the Boss and I respect the boss man. Smile

Bryan Bradfield · From: Lethbridge, Alberta, Canada.

Somewhere I read that the one of the strongest competitors that the Martin Guitar Company has for guitar sales is themselves (that is, their previously made guitars).

I’m not sure if that has relevance here, but the current discussion about courses made me think of the guitar story.

Jim Saunders · From: Houston, Texas, U.S.A.

To use another automobile example, the better Japanese cars built their reputation partly on their resale values. They are taking over the sales leadership based largely on reliability and retained value.
I don't want to harp on Bob's rule. I think one day Bob should be put into the Steel Guitar Hall of Fame. (Not sucking up here Bob) But, with cars,or teaching material, used buyers are not necesarily new buyers. Someone who buys a used copy of Jeff Newman's "Up From The Top" would probably not buy it new from Fran. Likewise, someone who buys a 4 year old Toyota Camry was not a prospect for a new one.
I'm done. Thanks.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

great point Jim, I guess I am for the most part a
"USED BUYER". For me half the fun in obtaining something is the search..

Buying something new is really a chore for me, I labor over the decision for weeks or months sometimes.

I bought my wife the NEW Suburban , but not until I ran across a killer deal that I could not turn down....

I finally bought a Boss Micro BR after looking at them for probably 3 months. Even at that I bargained down to a lower price.

face it Tony, you're a Cheap Skate !

But I am smart enough to know that if something I am looking for is hard to acquire, or rare,I will buy it on the spot when it crosses my path.

USED buyers, they will buy new sometimes, but most of the time will pass...

Great read, The Millionaire Next Door ( not me) is a USED buyer...but I have him beat on TV sets, I have 3, I think he only has one 12" B+W !

Joe Butcher · From: Dallas,Texas, USA

I dont understand who would buy used condoms to begin with.
Seems a little odd to me.

Anyway, I gotta go now, I have an appointment with the eye doctor to get my new glasses.

Mike Thomas · From: Massachusetts, USA

I think it would be interesting to see if the publishers would be willing to give you 50% of the purchase price back after some alloted time (say 1 year so you just don't make a quick copy).

They can list a "used" section on the website and sell for 75% of the original cost.

Yes, the would rather sell a new one but getting a piece of the used market is better than nothing.

Maybe you could list folks willing to do that.

Otherwise, the idea you propose is fine. If I felt I can sell it on ebay, I may, but for specialized material, a forum is probably still the best place to sell.

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

Publishers /Authors stay in business by promoting and releasing NEW material all the time.

In this case, the previous SPECIALIZED material is the stepping stone for the new material, USED or NEW.

There are always instances of USED, but the fact still remains, copies of NEW programs are always available, copies of the same USED program may NEVER become available.

It would be a mistake to start offering NEW programs at prices competing with the USED programs, at the end of the day all it would do is lower the re-sale value of the USED program.

Mike Thomas · From: Massachusetts, USA

Good point....

I was wondering if manufacturers could do something like the "Certified Used Car" marketing ......

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

there are now three kinda cars available for purchase

NEW
USED
and
PRE OWNED

I am guessing the TITLE to the PRE OWNED says..
USED Smile

Joey Ace · From: Hamilton, Ontario, Canada

Does this policy apply to courses that are no longer available new?

Jim Kennedy · From: Brentwood California, USA

This may be a little off topic, but I think it is relevant. What about the posting of tabs, BIAB or midi files on the forum, or web sites where they are available at no cost? If this material is not public domain, how can it be posted?? BMI/ASCAP, RIAA and the Harry Fox Agency have been after MIDI and TAB sites for years, not just Recorded music downloads. As far as lesson material goes, will someone determine if the author or editor has paid his royalties and/or copyright fees before offering the material for sale?? If it is required to pay a 20% gratuity, surcharge, or whatever it is, for used material sold on the forum, shouldn't any material posted here have all of the proper royalties and copyright fees paid before being posted?? How far do you take these type of polocies?? Authors and artists are entitled to their fair share. Spirit of the law, or letter of the law??
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b0b · From: Cloverdale, CA, USA

This policy is limited to courses that are available from the publisher.

The policy on posting copyrighted material is stated clearly in the Membership Agreement.
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Ken Pippus · From: Langford, BC, Canada

As best I can tell, there hasn't been a single used course posted since the new rules were announced. If that was the intent, it appears to work.

KP

Frank Estes · From: Huntsville, AL

When we sell a steel guitar here, we could calculate the money made playing out minus the cost for strings and modifications (new knee lever, etc.) and send 20% of that amount to the builder! Rolling Eyes

If that turns out to be a negative amount, should we send a bill to the builder or b0b?

Obviously, it is a silly idea because it is half-baked. There are many assumptions. First, the assumption is that knowledge was gained. News flash: not all courses are helpful and it is not always the fault of the publisher. Now, if we sell here, we can add insult to "injury" by sending the publisher 20% of our selling price for a course we really did not use.

Another assumption is that people are dishonest by nature. Sorry, it does not apply to all.

Another assumption is that if we did not sell our used course at that much lower price (as much as 50% off), then the publisher would have made the sale at retail. I doubt they would at full price.

Buying a course is a crap shoot and we all know that. Some stuff is overhyped intentionally and sometimes not. If one can buy a course at half the price of the retail, then they are more willing to take that chance. If that used course works out for the new buyer, then they may find they want to buy the other courses by the publisher, but without the first purchase, one may never become a customer of the publisher.

I have a ton of stuff that I have never used and will probably never get to and will sell some of it at some point.

This new policy helps my decision to sell on Ebay instead of here. I will make more in a true auction environment anyway. I have plenty of Paul Franklin's speed picking tapes that I will sell one day.

Keep an eye out on Ebay! Razz

Some of you from the "people's republic of California" never cease to amaze me... Surprised

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