Dobro Pickup

Chip Fossa · From: Monson, MA, USA (deceased)

This past Saturday afternoon band rehearsel was a big bummer for me.

My new Rogue dobro sounded very nice coming thru my Evans FET 500 and being mic/ed. Cheap mic - $30 Nady;
and also using a Fishman pre-amp and a Tone Press.

This was done at my house before the rehearsel; checking out equipment to make sure things will/or should go smoothly.

To the point - lots of feedback at rehearsel - uncontrollable, actually - but much more electric equipment and musicians filling up a room about 20x20 with 3/4 of the ceiling at 8' and the rest going up twenty feet to a loft - kinda complicated to imagine - but - a big bummer for me.

Everyone really wanted to hear the dobro in the mix, of course, but by now, it was out of the question.

Later on, a fellow musician simply took a "vocal" mic piped into the PA and played the dobro thru it. No feedback, at all. But by this time, we were all winding down, and the mics were limited in quanity anyway.

This just really p&^%$#ed me off.

Do any of you Dobro Dudes play thru a pickup, or can recommend a good one? And, please, no Fishman.

I just looked at Stew-Mac's site and they seem to list only 1 dobro pickup - LACE DOBRO PICKUP #5092 on page 39 of catalog #112.

It seems OK, even price-wise, but appears that you may have to rip into the cone and other aspects of the dobro; ie. A BIG DEAL.

I'm looking for a simple and stupid pickup, actually.

Please help, all you pros.

Chipster
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Chip
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Larry Strawn · From: Golden Valley, Arizona, R.I.P.

Chip,

I have the same problem mic'ing my resonator, that's why I very seldom play it at a gig, to much of a hassal trying to make it work right.

I'm looking for the same thing you are, a good dependable [simple] to use pick up.

If you find one please let me know! And I'll do the same.

Larry
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Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

I've had good luck with the little donut shaped Fishman pickup that mounts to the screw in the middle of the cone. You have to pull out the cone to install it but that's really no big deal.
I get the passive model without the built in preamp as I don't like the idea of a battery inside the dobro that needs changing. I use an acoustic amp and that has plenty of gain to handle a passive pickup.

Chip Fossa · From: Monson, MA, USA (deceased)

Thanks Larry and Erv. I appreciate your responses.

I'll look into the Fishman. I'll bet that donut-shaped Fishman sounds better than the Fishman Pizeos I have mounted in 3 guitars. That's why I've become leery off Fishman - the Pizeos are fine pickups, but are a bit on the harsh side, to my liking.

I wonder what Jerry Douglas uses. In videos I've seen of him, I don't recall him using a mic.
I think that might be one reason why, in some "true" bluegrass circles, Allison and crew are not considered "true" bluegrass because they use pickups instead of mics.

Chipper
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Erv Niehaus · From: Litchfield, MN, USA

Chip,
In the Fishman ad, it states that the donut pickup is used by Jerry Douglas.

Tim Harr · From: Dunlap, Illinois

http://www.schertler.com/prodotti_ing/pickups/resonator_guitar_basik.htm

This is all you will ever need - right here.

Mike Ester · From: New Braunfels, Texas, USA

The problem comes in when there is a lot of stage volume. When I use my Rogue, I mic it with an old Shure SM57 I've had for years. In my main band, we use ear monitors/headphones and no stage monitors. Therefore, I can mic the reso with no problems.

Another thing you may try (providing you have room) is to set up a mic as far over and away from the rest of the band. I do this with another band (that uses stage monitors) and it seems to work OK.

YMMV

Larry Robbins · From: Fort Edward, New York

I use one of these:
http://schattendesign.com/resonator.htm

as well as a Shure 57. The pickup to give some overall presence and I work the mic for fills and lead. That haveing been said, you want to be careful of monitor placement with any pickup of that type. Remember that your reso is pretty much just that!..a resonator and if you have monitors blasting into it it will be vary prone to "resonate" this sound back through the PA causing it to feedback.
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Alvin Blaine · From: Picture Rocks, Arizona, USA

Mark Eaton · Posted 24 Sep 2007 4:45 pm

In combination with that Shure mike, Jerry is using a prototype Fishman under-the-saddle pickup for dobros, and it runs into the Fishman Aura system.

This new system, which Jerry has been trialing for a couple of years, was originally supposed to come to market this past summer, but apparently there were some additional bugs to work out.

But it sounds great, in concert. I've seen him three times in the past year.
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Mark

Clyde Mattocks · From: Kinston, North Carolina, USA

I gave up on it a long time ago, tried everything anyone told me about or that I could dream up. In
a band with electric bass and drums, they are going to be louder inside your sound well than your own instrument. I could make it work on a large concert
stage or outside, but in a tight club, forget it.
Jerry Douglas doesn't have to deal with the sound
pressure levels of a bar band. The closest I ever
came was with a cheap Radio Shack lapel mic (about
$20) fastened onto the spider with a bread tie. It
surprisingly reproduced the dobro tone faithfully,
which few pickups will do.

When playing acoustic music, just give me a good ol' SM 58.

Chip Fossa · From: Monson, MA, USA (deceased)

WOW!

Thanks so much, gentleman - Tim, Mike, Larry R., Alvin, Mark, Erv & Larry S.

I got my homework cut out for me.

I've dinkered over the years with dobros, never really owned one. But as I played steel and guitar, that darn dobro always was there. I used to love noodling with it after gigs, or whenever. Always said to myself - "one day I'm gonna get me one of these".

I think it just compliments the steel. It forces you to play in a non-pedal/knee lever and volume pedal way. What I mean is - you have to concentrate more on intonation and bar control [slanting].

It's a great instrument. I regret, in a way, not getting one sooner.

Thanks again fellas - I appreciate all your insights and suggestions.

Keep em' coming.

Chipper Smile

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Chip
Williams U-12 8X5; Keyless; Natural Blonde Laquer.

Chip Fossa · From: Monson, MA, USA (deceased)

Sorry Clyde.

Thank you, as well.

Our postings must have criss-crossed.

Chipster Confused

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Williams U-12 8X5; Keyless; Natural Blonde Laquer.

Ron Randall · From: Dallas, Texas, USA

Man, I feel for you.

Same thing has happened to me twice. Too many amatuer guitar players/drummers/etc.
They say they can control volume, but they cannot.
They like the pedal steel, but can't understand the physics of a resonator. YOU CAN'T FIX STUPID.

I play my Benoit 8 String resonator out twice a week now in a 10 piece Praise band plus 8 member chorus. Never any problem with feedback. I use a lavalier condensor mic, plugged to a small pre to the house.

scott murray · From: Asheville, NC

hey Ron-
I'm an 8-string player too. Mine was built by a guy named Randy Collier in the DC area... a friend of Mike Auldridge.
how do you tune it? mine is G6 (Em7) with a low E.

Chip-
I use a McIntyre pickup and a Fishman preamp sometimes. Works really well... hardly ever feeds back. Thinkin' about a McIntyre for my acoustic guitar as well.
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Mark Eaton · Posted 25 Sep 2007 1:10 am

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

I've got the old style McIntyre in my Guernsey (NOT the Feather!), and it sounds pretty good. I'm waiting to hear the new Fishman system, too.

Webb Kline · From: Orangeville, PA

I've got the little Fishman donut pickup. I bought one of those ART tube preamps that are on sale at Musician's Friend for 29 bucks--they're actually a D.I. with a 12AX7 tube--and man, what a difference! So warm and powerful and hardly any feedback problem at all. You can even push the tube and get a bluesier tone if you need that growl. Best 29 bucks I ever spent.

Clyde Mattocks · From: Kinston, North Carolina, USA

Thanks Mark, No I haven't seen Jerry in a loud band,
but I'll stay tuned to this new rig configuration.
I have seen him and Rob Ickes many times trying
various setups, only to see them abandon them for
something else. For a while Rob was using a setup
and though I am a huge fan, I wondered "Doesn't he
know how bad that sounds out front?" He went back to just playing into a mic. When cranked up, almost all of them sound like an Ovation guitar with gut strings. The split system can sound great if you don't have to get too loud with it. You still have to overcome the problem of the stage noise becoming amplified along with your own acoustic output.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Given all the problems, wouldn't it be simpler to use a lap steel with some sort of pickup like the one Zum was selling a few years ago? Or maybe a Marrs cat-can?
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David Doggett · Posted 25 Sep 2007 9:10 am

Mark Eaton · Posted 25 Sep 2007 4:27 pm

Mark Eaton · Posted 25 Sep 2007 4:51 pm

David, Jerry's band can get loud - so it's not like it's at some relatively benign volume level for background effect.

Dobros can be a pain,for sure. I'm currently using one of those Art Tube preamps, as posted earlier by Webb Kline. Combined with a Shure SM-57, with about a 2/3 mike mix to 1/3 pickup, it sounds reasonably natural.

But once again - we are using in-ear monitors, so no floor wedges, which can be feedback monsters for the dobro. Our drummer is using an electronic Roland-V drum set, so I'm not battling a regular, really loud, acoustic kit. So, admittedly, I don't have the same issues as some others here - but I used to.

The great thing I noticed last year in watching Jerry play an outdoor gig with his relatively loud band, is that he would step away from his Shure mike to walk over toward his drummer, and with this prototype Fishman rig, there was no noticeable decline in the quality of the sound through the speakers. I talked to one of the sound guys, who also works on the Union Station crew (which incidentally, a year or so ago they won the equivalent of a Grammy for best sound system in the awards specific to that industry - and get this for competition - they beat out the sound team of the Rolling Stones). The sound guy found the same thing I had found - the quality did not diminish when Jerry stepped away from the mike but was still playing. I'm not privy to why he still uses the Shure mike.

Mike P. posted about a Zum pickup - not familiar with it - and the Marrs cat can ain't bad, and I have nothing but the utmost respect for Mike and his outstanding accomplishments on the pedal steel - but whenever I see suggestions like that from hard core pedal steel guys, it reminds me that the dobro may be thought of as sort of the "red-headed stepchild" of the steel guitar family of instruments.

Douglas has worked with Fishman to take the whole dobro amplification thing to the next level - this future Fishman unit is going be the go-to unit for dobro players in the forseeable future. You read it here first, boys! Smile

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Mark

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Mark, I meant no disrespect toward the Dobro or it's players. But it seems to me that amplifying acoustic instruments almost always creates problems of one sort or another. (I think that's one of the reasons why so many bluegrass players insist on keeping everything purely acoustic.)

I love the Dobro sound, but I think using a lap steel that can recreate that sound without the feedback is a practical way to approach playing the instrument in an electric band.
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Mark Eaton · Posted 26 Sep 2007 12:26 am

Jerry Douglas as, many of us know, has become to the dobro perhaps what Buddy Emmons is to the pedal steel. Or a writer a few years ago thought that he might be to the dobro, what Jimi Hendrix was to electric guitar, or what Charlie Parker was to saxophone. And he is also a fine lap steel player. My favorite piece with him on lap steel is his take on the Johnny Cash classic, "Don't Take Your Guns To Town," with Steve Earle on the vocal, from Jerry's 1998 album, "Restless On The Farm."

Jerry has also said that the dobro is like a handsaw, whereas the lap steel is like a chainsaw. You can tune them exactly the same, but they are very different animals, just like a Martin D-28 is a very different "animal" than a Les Paul.

But if he couldn't tame the difficulties of amplifying the dobro in an electric setting, we'd miss out on a a lot of great stuff when seeing he and his band in concert. It would be like watching Tony Rice, or Tommy Emmanuel, on an electric the whole night. I'm sure those would be enjoyable shows, but we would be deprived of a huge chunk of their artistry.

So that's why I'm glad when a company like Fishman works with an artist like Jerry to "build a better mousetrap" in the area of dobro amplification, so that the technology can become available to the rest of us. The squareneck lap style dobro of course became popular originally in Hawaiian music, then moved into old time country, where Brother Oswald became the king of the instrument in Roy Acuff's band, then it had kind've a long dormant period until it resurfaced again in the 1950's in bluegrass led by Josh Graves.

Nowadays you can go to a Douglas show, much different than when he plays with Union Station, and you may hear his interpretation of the Jimi Hendrix song "Little Wing," or "A Remark You Made," the classic from the recently deceased Joe Zawinul from his Weather Report era.

The dobro ain't just hillbilly anymore.

But there has been a resurgence in acoustic-based roots music in the past several years, some of which is attributable to the massive popularity of the film, "Oh Brother, Where Art Thou."

And due to this and other influences, it has not been uncommon to read threads where gigging pedal steelers are called upon by band leaders "to play a dobro for three or four tunes a night." Sometimes, when I'm not in a particularly ambitious mood, I might find myself in front of the tube watching videos on GAC, and it seems like the dobro is featured in a lot of these songs nearly as much as the steel guitar.

When I read about the steelers, who spend thousands of dollars on their rigs, sometimes it seems they want to spend the least amount of money possible on their dobros - it's sort of like they treat the thing as a pesky fly buzzing around their heads - kind of an irritant that distracts them from their pedal steel.

Or they are asking about various dobro simulators, to see if that device will do the same job without actually having to deal with a dobro. "You can't tell the difference between a real dobro and a simulator." Yeah, right. That's about like saying you can't tell the difference between a Tele-equipped B-Bender and a real pedal steel!

The great Clarence White did some good stuff with The Byrds on his Parsons/White Stringbender before his life was tragically cut short in 1973. Were he alive today, I'm sure he'd be the first to tell you that he wasn't trying to fool anybody into thinking that he was playing an actual pedal steel, but he was going for the general effect. Or I guess we could get a hold of Gene Parsons, multi-instrumentalist, who plays pedal steel and lives not far from me on the Mendocino coast in the town of Caspar.

That's what those dobro simulators represent to me. A device which will sort of get you into the ballpark, and give you the general effect.

To bring it back around to my original point, isn't it great that as the dobro continues to evolve as a musical instrument, that companies like Fishman are not sitting still with the same old products, and are working on technology to make it easier, and lot more fun, so that dobroists can play the thing in a performance situation where they need amplification?
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