The cultural gap and Sneaky Pete

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Does anybody remember how, in 1972, when the Nitty Gritty Dirt Band went to Nashville to record their historic collaboration with some of America’s leading country and bluegrass artists, “Will the Circle Be Unbroken,” and Bill Monroe refused to be part of the project because the guys in the Dirt Band had long hair?

This country is named the United States of America. But the truth is that we are not united at all. We are divided by politics, religion, and culture in general, including music.

There are a lot of people here who have bridged that musical gap. They listened to rock when they were younger, and then discovered country. There are also those who are on one side of that gap or the other who have not bridged it. Some people here only listen to country (and old country at that) and know nothing about rock. One person who shall remain nameless, knows only about rock and country rock, and nothing about traditional country music.

Earlier this year the tribute to Sneaky Pete was held the same weekend as the Southwest Steel Guitar Association’s show in Mesa AZ. I suggested to the master of ceremonies that it would be appropriate for him to mention this from the stage, which he did, but he didn’t know anything at all about Pete, except that he played in the Burrito Brothers.

This man is on the country side of the musical gap.

I believe this gap between rock and country steel players is indicative of the much larger cultural gap that permeates our country.

In the thread about Pete’s plaque, there was a lot of hostility generated by people on one side of the gap towards those in the other. But no light was generated, only heat. (Some of it by me, I must confess.)

I submit that it would be better for people on both sides to learn about the contributions of people on the other.

There is a saying: “Let there be peace on Earth, let it begin with me.” We as steel players cannot solve all the problems facing our country, but we can and should make an effort to learn about the players and music of those who come from the other side of the gap. I close this rant with a take off on the other saying. “Let there be unity and understanding in America, let it begin with us.”
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Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

to most people, especially the younger crew, I dont think there IS a cultural gap. you have people on the extreme ends of the spectrum for whom it seems to be a big deal, but I beleive they are by far the minority.

most people these days dont care if you call it country, country rock or elf metal as long as its GOOD...and they certainly dont care about long hair.

politics and religion...another story

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

I hope you're right Ben. I myself have not been part of the "younger crew" for 40 years and am not really in touch with people of that age.
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Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
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Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Predjudice exists everywhere. Back in the day, the long hair and sloppy dress were merely signs of rebellion towards the older, more conservative attitudes and morals. The younger people did not appreciate the older people, their values, and their way of life, and the older people had little respect for the "me generation" that was into free sex, drugs, and irresponsibility. The predjudice went both ways...but after all, who were the rebellious ones?

Sadly, we're all "branded" by some other group as undesirable. In music, gifted, classically schooled musicians often look down their noses at us "hackers", and the hackers often pick up on this disdain and return it accordingly. We all have something to offer, but our pride, predjudice, self-serving morals, and peer pressure usually prevents us from coming together.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

I will make an assumption that Mike is being kind and not mentioning me by name, but assuming that I'm the:

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

The young players are right here Jim (sorry i didnt make it to St, Louis, most young people cant afford such a vacation and if they could probably wouldnt choose St. Louis as a venue ..no offense to any St. louis-ites) and frankly we dont feel country purists are intentionally disrespecting us, holding us back, discouraging us , or preventing us in any way from doing anything we want with this instrument. That view seems to be yours and yours alone. Most threads here relating to rock, "blues scales", unique players, RR, and even truly avante garde psg peices are, save for the occasional extremist like yourself, met with enthusiam, insight, and helpful and thoughtful comments.

The sneaky ceremony was not intentional disrespect.
It was pointed out to you that many other more traditional players had similar or even greater flubbed ceremonies/plaques but you insist on taking it as a personal shot. Yes Jim they decided to induct your hero (and mine btw) just so they could publicly slight him...

You seem to want to rebel against something..something the rest of us just dont see or feel.
If anyone has forced you into a corner it is yourself. When you take it too far and become aggresively insulting ...you cannot be surpised by the response you got, can you? Go on playing the martyr , but no one is really buying it..young or old country or rock..we all just kinda think you are a bit nuts, and more than a bit abrassive.

Its fine to have strong opinions, but go back and read your last couple posts in the sneaky thread and maybe consider trying to express your views without the paranoia and needless and unwarranted insults.

Jeremy Threlfall · From: now in Western Australia

I've been trying to keep away from this, but I've gotta say ...

(from the perspective of someone totally culturally and geographically removed from whats going on here)

I find the attacks on Jim (especially the one about taking up another instrument) totally out of proportion with whatever offense Jim may have caused.

I think he has been quite respectful in his criticism whilst trying to convey the disappointment he has felt (esp for someone who is obviously such a Sneaky fan - and one who has put his money where his mouth is in terms of the gear he has set up and the effort he has gone to to further the Sneaky legacy).

I have not gathered that Jim thinks the Sneaky ceremony was intentional disrespect, and although - if I were Jim - I would not have carped on about it to the extent that he has, and I have thought from time to time Jim might be a bit abrasive, I (for one, speak for yourself Ben) don't think Jim is "nuts".

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Scotty has offered to fix the mistake on the plaque according to Herb...That should be good enough.If my chiming inn crack about sanding,and Krylon on that locked thread has offended Scotty I apologize...He happens to be a really nice guy.As for what happens during these closed meetings I have no idea or interest,Like Micheal Vick "I aint Got No Dog In This Fight" Laughing

Perlowin I just realized that if you take the "F" out of "STFU" ya' got Stu :lol:Herb Steiner..He's been a good friend for close to 30 years and knows more than anyone I that I know about the Steel Guitar.Ben,and you other young people the future of the Steel Guitar is in your hands. Smile

I also consider Jim Sliff a friend.
_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952.

Jerry L Miller · From: Sublette, Kansas, USA

i am old country some new country some clasical, soft rock r & b, i also like the nashville brass, NO hard rock or rap, but to each his own if i only listened to old country i would stimey my self. we are all going to be slighted at one time or another, are hear our favorite cut down by some one shake it off forget it and go on as if it didnt happen you will be much happier. Very Happy

jerry

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Thanks Jeremy. I appreciate your comments. As for Stu, sheesh - be careful of the company you keep! Whoa!

Ben - I understand your position, but I think you'll find, if you really READ what I post, I'm not normally all that abrasive unless someone jumps me, and folks seem to get surprised when any one who doesn't "toe the line" doesn't just fold.

I realize there ARE some younger players here, and lately a few decent RR threads. There have been many, though, warnings about certain subjects: RR and Garcia to name two. And if you go outside the Sacred-Steel and country rock arenas, "rock" steel is considered by traditionalists as a "novelty" - toss in "Takin' Care of Business" and rock out, dude! That's NOT the "culture" we're talking about.

And I don't think you can attribute non-attendance at the convention by younger steelers to lack of funding; most retired folks have far less disposable income than guys in their 20's.

And nowhere did I say the awards mess was intentional - I said it was disrespectful, and I will stand by that comment. If you honor someone with what is supposedly a highly-coveted award, you do a little background work, know the awardee's background and GET IT RIGHT. You don't make several...not just one, but several...glaring mistakes.

And as Mike points out very well, it's related to a culture gap. You seem to be denying it exists - I think you are incorrect, but you certainly have a right to your opinion. And it may be that wherever you are located it's less of a gap, or you're more open-minded than many. But I don't try to create the gap, or widen it - however, it's sure there, and you can't start to close it without pointing it out.

As far as being a bit nuts...well, there's an interesting example of something mentioned in my last post; as one who has usually demonstrated his position on the traditional side of the fence Ben, you proved my point.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Geoff Barnes · From: Sydney, Australia

Well, I dunno what side of the fence I sit on these days, but the first Country(ish) sounds I heard was in the music of Jackson Browne, Poco, CSN&Y, Lynard Skynard, James Taylor and even Elton John in the first album.
Bob Dylan and Arlo Guthrie got me interested in Woody Guthrie which led to Leadbelly, Bill Monroe, Merle Travis and Hank Williams… Hal Rugg’s work with Loretta kinda cemented my fascination with pedal steel particularly… which led on to “no show” Jones, Johnny Cash, and after that the lines kinda blurred.
So as a kid I saw it like this big ball of twine… I started pulling on it and the further I got, the more music I discovered that was cool.
Also living here on the other side of the planet, I didn’t face the exact same prejudices that you “Seppos” experienced, as country music downunder only surfaced commercially when it crossed over into Pop (Delta Dawn, The Gambler etc..) or was a novelty/comedy as in “pub with no beer”, “White Lightnin”, “A boy named Sue” etc. etc..
As a longhaired teenager I got in my fair share of scraps, and there were certain parts of the city one never ventured into without a substantial posse. My first record company had its studios in Pyrmont, a harbourside suburb of Sydney, which was an area inhabited by dockworkers and that could get pretty dangerous….
But country music was enough of a novelty that bands were happy just to see punters in the beer garden on a Saturday arvo. And musicians were happy to take a hippy into the band most times as long as the politics and “lifestyle” stuff was kept private.
As a young guitarist I knew enough to realise that the chops were demanding and that sealed the deal!
In fact I remember an interview with Jimi Hendrix where he was asked why he played with his teeth, and he said that when he travelled through Nashville (after getting out of the service?), the standard of the street buskers was so high he knew he would have to pull something special out of the hat to compete commercially.
So country music for me has always been about the chops… y’all can argue til the cows come home about what constitutes “Pure” country vs “Rock” “Country rock” etc etc… just so long as I can cross the battlefield after the smoke clears and pick the meat off the corpses.
Laughing

_________________
Too much equipment....I think I need help.

Stu Schulman · From: Ulster Park New Yawk (deceased)

Ben,It's all good,Stu Winking

_________________
Steeltronics Z-pickup,Desert Rose S-10 4+5,Desert Rose Keyless S-10 3+5... Mullen G2 S-10 3+5,Telonics 206 pickups,Telonics volume pedal.,Blanton SD -10,Emmons GS_10...Zirctone bar,Bill Groner Bar...any amp that isn't broken.Steel Seat.Com seats...Licking paint chips off of Chinese Toys since 1952.

Janice Brooks · From: Pleasant Gap Pa

It's folks willing to learn and get along that givrd me joy in hosting the music area.

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Actually, my post was intended to be more about people on the on the country side of the gap who know little or nothing about the country rock steelers. My point is that it people on either side of the gap should learn more about what's happening on the other.

I think it's really great that so many players are so open minded. But the fact remains that there are some players on this forum who still don't know very much about steel guitar players whose music is outside of their area of specialty.

How many people here have listened to, or are even aware of, the pedal steel guitar work of Demola Adepoju (Steel player for King Sunny Adé) from Nigeria?
_________________
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin

Ben Jones · From: Seattle, Washington, USA

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Some of what Jim says is certainly true. I don't agree with Jim a lot of times, but I do admit he has a lot of knowledge in certain areas - areas that might benefit a lot of us. My old man used to have a saying..."Everybody does what they do." That was his own bucolic way of saying that the vast majority of people don't (or won't) change very much. Arguing music, or trying to get someone to change their attitude about some genre, instrument brand, or singer, is a lot like talking religion or politics. Most everyone just eventually goes their own way mumbling..."That guy don't get it".

Most of the time I'm in here, I do two things...

The first is trying to help people with a problem. Being around all this stuff has allowed me to learn a few things, and if this trivial knowledge I have can help someone else, that's all the better. (Oh sure, I still hear the old "How many gold records have you played on?" stuff, and the "How many pedal steels have you built?" stuff, but I've learned to ignore that kind of comment. Tiger Woods hasn't made many golf clubs, but he certainly knows a thing or two about 'em.

The second thing I try to do (and this one earns me lots of ill will), is to try and de-emphasize the "equipment" aspect that comes up so often. Nothing does more to dampen someone's enthusiasm than to have someone else tell them that "You'll never sound great unless you're playing a __________" (insert your favorite brand name). It could be a guitar, a pedal, a bar, an amp, a cord, a brand of strings, or whatever. Someone here (but strangely, never a "top pro") will sooner or later give that item credit for their sound. Just use your common sense, and you can see through that false logic. Astonishingly few of us could sit behind Buddy's or Paul's exact rig (or even Sneaky's), and sound anything like they do.

Duh??? Does that tell you anything?

Make music! Don't worry about what the other guy uses, or what the "famous" guy uses. Use what you've got until it lets you down, and don't constantly use it as an excuse for why you don't sound better. (You'd probably be surprised what a real player can do with it).

And in closing, remember...the phrase "I think ________ is best" is a lot more believeable and acceptable than just saying "_________ is the best"; whether you fill in those blanks with a type of music, a brand of guitar, or a player's name.

Peace.

Jim Bob Sedgwick · From: Clinton, Missouri USA

AMEN, Donny Smile

I listen to what I like, and don't listen to what I don't care for. (I think we still have the freedom to do that without censure )

You guys listen to what you like, and I freely give you my permission to do so.

(As if my permission was necessary)

Personally, I like just about all genres of music, except rap. Flame suit on

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Ben - Thanks for clarifying things, and I apologize. Looks like we're a LOT more on the same page than I've sometimes thought.

Let's work on some Pennywise tab...punk steel...hmmm...Fletcher lives around the corner...

Winking

(btw - "i dont think you can claim comments like "now you can wallow in your own mud" or "how many half full glasses have you been drinking?" as respectful." i scorrect, but it was in response to 1) a personal attack, and 2) a partial quoting of a personal email, which was used without my persmission. That's wrong in my book. If I took it too far, so be it - but I've said I will not tolerate personal attacks without defending myself to some degree. That person chose to take it outside email, where I chose to keep it so as not to subject the forum to more of it. It was a "baiting" tactic and it worked. Oh, well.)
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Stephen Gambrell · From: Over there

Ben, Ben, Ben---the STRAWBERRY TOASTER OVEN???

I LIKE that name--In fact, I think I was in that band in 1966...
I don't like opera. Don't understand it, and those shreiking sopranos hurt my ears. So does Joan Baez. I like a little classical music, especially classical guitar, and I've studied that a little (years ago). I like some rock, some country (old and new), some bluegrass(And Bill Monroe was always kind to me, even after he saw my hair getting longer), some comedy---But I don't like it ALL, and I don't have to. I don't care for the garbage SOME people call art, either. My privilege. So let the gap remain! Keep music pure. Do we really want fiddles in hip-hop, or accordions in---wel, I think I've made my point. Not to say that pedal steel is not a viable instrument for ANY genre of music, as Buddy Emmons, Curley Chalker, Rusty Young, Doug Jernigan, Robert Randolph, or Joe Wright can demonstrate. But can we at least hang on to our personal favorites without being castigated??

Bill Hatcher · From: Atlanta Ga. USA

Mike Perlowin · From: Los Angeles CA

Tony Prior · From: Charlotte NC

we are NOT ALL Divided.

those who are DIVIDED chose to be.

Bill Monroe was invited to the session, he decided to not attend. He divided himself from the longhairs...

No different than anything else in life.

If someone lets a song, type of Music, Politics, Blonde Hair, whatever , control there daily actions, they are the ones who create there own divide.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Eric Jaeger · From: Oakland, California, USA

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