Fender 400 - can I compensate for breakage with dif gages?

Kristen Bruno · From: Orlando, Florida, USA

From some of the posts, I have noticed that some people with Fender 400 guitars would tune their guitar a little lower to compensate for string breakage.
I was wondering if is possible to simply change the gage of the string (to maybe a lighter gage?), rather than to downtune. If this is possible, then almost any tuning could be had as long as the string gages selected accordingly. Right?

I am only referring to the fender 400 in which the strings can go up or down a half step. Hey, i'm new and curious!

Thanks
Kristen

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

Yes, you can do that. But remember that at a different tension the effect of depressing the pedals or working a knee lever is going to be different, so you will probably have to adjust your settings.

I have my E9 neck permanently set up to D#9 and never have breakages, despite the fact that I often go quite berserk with my right foot on the pedals. Embarassed

Eddie Cunningham · From: Massachusetts, USA

I play a Fender 1000 and always was breaking the hi G# string on the E 9th neck, even down to .009 gauge which sounded very weak. I moved the nut closer 1&1/2 in. and put a new shorter fret board on and guitar plays and sounds O.K. !!! No more broken strings !! This solution worked for me !! Eddie "C"

Don Barnhardt · From: North Carolina, USA

Tune it to D9.

Kristen Bruno · From: Orlando, Florida, USA

Does anyone use the A6th tuning recommended in the fender manual?

Kristen

David Doggett

Kristen Bruno · From: Orlando, Florida, USA

Thanks. i think i understand. from what i read it appears that you can compensate with a different gage string, but the strength or sustain of the string will suffer, so it just "wouldn't sound right". Also, the scale length of the particular neck greatly determines the gage of strings you use (and consequently the tuning), right?

I guess my line of thinking was very "guitar oriented" which of course don't use pedals and have constant stretching of strings. its a whole new world!

thanks
kristen

Clyde Mattocks · From: Kinston, North Carolina, USA

There is a wealth of information in the archives on Fender cable steels and string breakeage. I have a
blonde 400 with a 24 1/2" scale which I must tune to Eb9 to keep an .011 G# string on. This is O.K., because I use it when I play with Bill Lyerly, an alt. country/R&B/rockabilly artist who tunes a half step flat, so I'm in with him.

I have a sunburst 400 with a 23" scale that I'm able to use an .012 G# on and tune E9th without breaking.

Alan Brookes · From: Brummy living in Southern California

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Kristen Bruno · From: Orlando, Florida, USA

Thanks. The length of mine is 24 1/2 inches.

I just tuned to an A6 before reading this post.
I mean, ... it really sounds country western, .... after playing ANYTHING in this tuning I expected Roy Rodgers to come galloping into my house on a horse!

I play mostly blues, but no matter what i did (or tried to do) it was cowboy-city! It is a very pretty tuning but the blues ain't pretty.
Since i just put on the string gages recommended for the A6th tuning, I guess i will have to stay with this tuning for awhile. Maybe write a Hawaiian-Country song in the meantime.
But I will definitely go to the D9 next time!

Thanks
Kristen

Kristen Bruno · From: Orlando, Florida, USA

Can these guitars flat (or sharp)a note by 2 half steps (a whole note)?
The reason i ask is because the manual shows (for an A6 tuning, the first pedal used to flat the second string from a C# to a B, which is a whole note. All the other changes appear to be a half note interval.

Can anyone clarify this? Thanks

Kristen

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

You can get at least 2 full steps - I've done it. And my 400 and 1000 both have a 1 1/2 step raise on the 4th string (on a right knee) plus a full step raise on the SAME string using a Shobud barrel tuner and an "L" bracket as a stop.

The manuals were written for the original intent - to play them as "chord changers", like other early steels - basically a 4-neck lap steel (assuming a 4-pedal guitar), where you are changing to a different chord and playing each time you press a pedal - with some pedal combos giving you "extra" chords.

The best thing you can do with the Fender manual is refer to it for how the guitar works, and ignore the musical stuff - tunings, copedents, etc - unless you play a Stringmaster or something and want to just use one neck.

That's NOT how most play them today - some use them as E9 (or tune down to D9) 8-string instruments for "regular" pedal steel; others play just about anything you can think of - swing, country rock, rock. They're very versatile, and the onboard volume and tone controls are things that IMO need to be reintroduced to the steel world, where "tone" is becoming a "one size fits all" commodity.

It's incredibly easy to change copedents; there are tons of mods that can be done to do things like double raises/double lowers, adding knees, changing pedal stiffness, etc. The best thing is to search old threads onthe forum, because there are LOTS of them and much of this info is being rehashed almost monthly, it seems. I'm always happy to answer specific emails as are lots of other Fender players - but again, check out some of the old threads and you'll find the basic answers there.

I will address one of the ones posed - string breakage. This is one of the most overhyped "problems" I've seen - usually stressed by folks who don't play Fenders of who haven't in 4 decades.

Even the straight bar bridge models will rarely break a string if the guitar is maintained well - the bridge needs to be checked carefully and buffed out really well to ensure there are no burrs; then lube it with TriFlow Teflon lubricant. I played an early 1000 with such a setup in E9 for months (playing it daily) and never broke a string.

Roller bridges, which were an aftermarket item made by Fender, are of course easier on the strings....but breakage just isn't a big deal. ONE former guitar of mine has a set of shims over the bar bridge on one neck - a genius idea (not mine) that works incredibly well, but is very complicated to repoduce.

Many of us don't really worry about breakage anyway, as we tune to B6- Sneaky Pete's copedent (with much larger string gages) - it's really an early universal. The lightest string on that setup is a .015 D#, and it's raised and lowered a full step (also lowered a half-step with the barrel tuner method mentioned earlier). The 4th string that's raised 1 1/2 steps (F# to A) is a .022.

It's really kind of funny how those of us who have played Teles with stringbenders for decades - pulling a .011 a full step over a straight bar, grooved steel or thread-type grooved saddle (that one is really prone to burrs) with a LONGER scale by a full inch never had string breakage problems and have never voiced much concern - and we're bending a full step (with the mechanism) AND hand-bending the SAME string at an angle, often at the same time. Most of the Tele players who have had breakage problems have had it finally broken down to right-hand picking angle problems - usually hard pulls up on the strings, not real common on steel.

So maintain your guitar and don't worry about it.

Kristen - email me about the B6 tuning and blues. It's perfect. I was jamming to Mike Bloofield stuff this afternoon...
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Tim Whitlock · From: Colorado, USA

Being that you are mostly interested in blues, either the A6 or E9 (or D9) tunings are going to give you a heavy dose of that country sound. For blues, you might be better off tuning to a straight E or G chord and developing your own pedal pulls.

The string breakage problem associated with the 400 (and 1000) is a result of the E9 tuning, for which this guitar was not designed and does not adapt well to. My apologies to Jim Sliff, but my 1000 simply does not tolerate E9th. The G# snaps immediately after only a pedal or two. The guitar performs fine tuned to D9 using a regular E9 string set (I do substitue a .012 for the problem string). If you are not interested in using the E9 tuning, string breakage probably won't be an issue. I NEVER break any of the other strings on my 1000.

Ian Finlay · From: Kenton, UK

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

Ian, the numbers of pedal players using the A6th is only a tiny fraction of the total, so I feel pretty justified saying that almost no one uses it (though there's always a few exceptions). Players who do primarily Hawaiian and pop stuff may be seen using it occasionally, but it's lack of use in the country field (where the pedal steel is still most popular) is probably mostly due to where it places the open "G" chord, the key of "G" being very popular in country music.

It's not always so much a matter of what chords you can play as it is where you're playing them. Wink

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

That's why B6 works so nicely (the "Sneaky-ized" version, or abbreviated versions of his copedent)- "G" is in a nice spot tonally. Not the same high-pitch as E9 but a lot of places to go - and it becomes very logical for guitar players, as "pedals down" put G at the 3rd fret like 6-string. The more I played B6 and E9 the less useful I found E9...but that's for what I do; still, it works for an awful lot of country stuff very, very well, and the string gages virtually eliminate breakage unless your guitar has problems.
_________________
No chops, but great tone
1930's/40's Rickenbacher/Rickenbacker 6&8 string lap steels
1921 Weissenborn Style 2; Hilo&Schireson hollownecks
Appalachian, Regal & Dobro squarenecks
1959 Fender 400 9+2 B6;1960's Fender 800 3+3+2; 1948 Fender Dual-8 Professional

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I see no clear advantage in using a B6th tuning over the C6th. If I were asked, I believe I'd recommend using the (far more popular) C6th tuning.

Russ Tkac · Posted 31 Aug 2007 5:09 pm

For a guitar player the B6 relates better. With pedals A&B at the third fret it is a G, first fret an F and open an E. In using the Newman E9/B6 course with my 12 string it relates to my Fender as well.

Billy Carr · From: Seminary, Mississippi, USA (deceased)

A Fender 400 would be a good guitar to keep for the history aspects or maybe playing without pedals but if your serious about tunings, I'd look into a 12 string universal, all pull guitar. It's all there in one guitar. E9th, B6th & A6th. Very easy to learn and eliminates pretty much any mechanical problems. The old guitars were built during a specific time for what was current then. Todays guitars are far more advanced and trouble free. There's a lot of Fenders still around that players are playing and working on which is fine. This is just my opinion that modern guitars are the way to go. Spend more time on top of it than under it.

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

I sort of agree. Don't try to make an old Fender cable guitar into an old guitar with modern mechanics. Don't try to add 5 to 7 levers with the Franklin change and the Tommy White pedal. Why? because if you do, you'll lose the classic sound. Not the sound of the guitar, but the sound made by someone playing a classic guitar with limited changes. Trust me, sound isn't just the tone of the guitar. Part of the "sound" people relate with is the way the guitar is played...the style or technique, as it were.

To have a "classic sound", you have to use the guitar the way it was used when that sound was originated. The more you modify the guitar, the further away you get from it's classic sound.

Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

Forum Index > Pedal Steel		Next oldest topic :: Next newest topic